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Is Osama bin Laden a genius?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Fletchette, May 28, 2005.

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  1. Fletchette

    Fletchette Member

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    First off, I absolutely do not support Osama bin Laden or his cause. I believe that his tactics are ethically bankrupt. But there is a fundamental difference between being "intelligent" and being ethically "good". For example, Rommel was a Nazi and killed plenty of Americans, yet he was by no means "stupid"; he is regarded as a brilliant strategist.

    So, using the same arguement, Osama bin Laden has managed to kill thousands of Americans on American soil -AND- turn most of the world against the United States -AND- managed to get our government to enact repressive laws that are a direct assault on our liberty and way of life.

    It seems to me that, militarily speaking, that Osama bin Laden has been extrodinarily successful in achieving his objectives.
     
  2. thorn726

    thorn726 Member

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    hardly.
    he's a good politician , that's all.
    maybe a good speaker, i wouldnt say he's stupid, but genius?

    a genius would not find his ridiculous actions or plans logical.
    <smile/>

    good he successfully got some idiots to kill themselves, and he is good a hiding in caves.
    but where is the projected thinking? the actual realization of the rest of the world?

    there is no hope whatsoever for success of el queeda, any idiot can see that.
    they could endlessly lob their tiny bombs at people they dont like, but they will never actually change the world to think like them.
    they might make us prepare for them, that's about it
     
  3. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    Not really.

    His objective is the destruction of Israel, and the conversion of all the world to Islam:
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

    He has not accomplished or advanced these goals. In fact, he has lost ground, losing his base in Afganistan, on the run, democratic elections in Afganistan and Iraq, in fact democracy is making inroads into most of the middle east - in direct opposition to his stated goals and desires.

    By any standard, including his own, he is a dismal failure.
     
  4. tyme

    tyme Member

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    Perhaps his publically-stated goals are not his real goals.
     
  5. Bacon

    Bacon Member

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    You stated:
    "For example, Rommel was a Nazi and killed plenty of Americans, yet he was by no means "stupid"; he is regarded as a brilliant strategist."

    You should get your facts straight. Rommel was not a Nazi. He defended his homeland. Nothing more. Nothing less.
     
  6. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    Osama is very bright. Evil, yes. But I will not deny that he is very intelligent.

    He is very good at organization. Managing resources. al Queda is nothing more than one of his databases of 'Afghan' veterans from the days he was fighting the Sovs. al Queda for all intensive purposes doesn't exist anymore except in concept. The names change, but the people do not. Groups merge, diverge, and change names very often to keep everyone off-balance.

    Simply put, he killed many thousands of Americans, and was never caught. All said and done, he killed Americans, and was not properly punished for it.
     
  7. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Whoever came up with the 9/11 plan was absolutely a genius. They hit us at our weakest point and did the maximum possible damage. And they brought the entire nation to a standstill--something no enemy had ever accomplished before. They used our own laws against us--taking advantage of the weapons-free zone on airplanes and the FAR's mandating full crew and passenger cooperation with hijackers. It was an attack of stunning simplicity and horrible carnage.

    Whether or not the idea was OBL's or one of his underlings I don't know. Whoever it was, they haven't managed to repeat their success. Though lord knows with all the new laws we've created to trip ourselves they certainly could.
     
  8. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    a crafty devil isn't he?

    It's not to hard to sway world opinion against the USA our quisling MSM is eager to assist OBL on his propaganda campaign,the NY Times might as well be on his payroll-it certainly seems as if PBS & CBS are.

    Our gov't is too eager to enact opressive laws anyway :fire:

    unfortunately flechette,I feel your on the right track here,he has been adept at using our weaknesses against us.

    :(
     
  9. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    Genius? No, not by a long shot. He's no Einstein or Tesla. And he's certainly no Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela. I don't think he even qualifies as an evil genius.

    Re: "-AND- turn most of the world against the United States"
    First, a few outspoken politicians and rabblerousers on the nightly news do not prove the world is now against us. Heck, DeGaulle and the French hated us a half-century ago. The Russians too, and the East Germans, and the Libyans, and the Canadians, and the Japanese, and the Chinese and the Democrats. :)

    John
     
  10. rdbrowning

    rdbrowning Member

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    Rebar "His objective is the destruction of Israel, and the conversion of all the world to Islam. He has not accomplished or advanced these goals. In fact, he has lost ground, losing his base in Afganistan, on the run, democratic elections in Afganistan and Iraq, in fact democracy is making inroads into most of the middle east - in direct opposition to his stated goals and desires.

    By any standard, including his own, he is a dismal failure."

    I will disagree with your conclusion. He has lost his influence with those in control in Afganastan and Iraq. His influence over the hearts of the populace may be stronger than ever. And that is in the two nations that we took out their governments and replaced with our choice. What about all of the millions around the equatorial regions? Malaysia, Phillipeans, Affricia? Islam is growing deeper, stronger and more fervent every day.

    Remember this is a religious war that has been going on for millinia, you have to think long term in your actions. No one action will win the war, it is merly a step towards a goal. If you want to destroy Israel you have to ask where does Israel's strength come from? Does America provide a lot of support to Israel finnancially, morally and politically? An attack on America is an attack on Israel's support. And his attack on America has ben sucessful beyond belief. One day's actions cost this country billions, maybe trillions of dollars. More importantly than America's monetary strength though is the strength that comes from freedom. And he managed to pour fertilizer on the seeds of our destruction and accelerate it's growth. The decline of our freedoms has progressed more in 5 years than in the previous 55. So in one move he reduced our capacity to support Israel with money and the shining example that we were to all of the world to what freedom could be. He may of also reduced our resolve / capacity to help Israel millitarialy. A physical attack on Israel now may be more productive with our attention and resources tied up elswhere. Not that he has the resources to attack Israel, but he knows that Israel has enemies that are opportunists. Talk about leveraging your assets!

    If OSB is not a poli-sci / tactial genus, he is the luckest SOB that ever walked the face of this Earth.
     
  11. gm

    gm Member

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    He's certainly no genius.He's very good at playing on peoples thoughts and using that. I would compare him to hitler and what he did post WW1 to garner support by playing on the peoples emotions for his own means but he made a big mistake and like hitler, has to hide in a bunker to stay alive. politically,he knows which buttons to push but he isnt a genius by any means.

    If he were a genuis, he wouldnt be hiding in some hole now would he, if he were a genius, he wouldnt have better than half the world looking to get his head on a platter because of terrorist attacks and killing of innocents indiscriminatly.


    When I think of osama , I think coward,idiot and dictator wannabe. his time is limited.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2005
  12. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    Sure, he managed to kill innocent civilians. Big deal, the islamofacists have proven good at murdering defensless people. Not so great against people who can fight back.

    I could sneak up behind Mike Tyson and suckerpunch him, does that make me a hero? What then do I become when he turns around and knocks me out cold, a genius because I provoked a fight I couldn't possibly win?

    The islamofacists hated us before bin Laden, they hate us now, and they will always hate us in the future. Sure, 9/11 was a propaganda victory, but it's not a military victory, and all it's done is provoke a fight bin Laden and his merry band of islamofacist death worshipers cannot possibly win.

    Worldwide, militant islam is on the run, and Israel is more secure than before. Non-muslems, who before really didn't know much about what was going on, are horrified at the murderous thugs who glorify themselves by murdering women and children. That's the story you won't hear on CBS.

    In fact, we're still fighting this war with one hand tied behind our backs, one eye covered, and are still kicking the hell out of them. By any standard, we're winning, and we can and will win so long as our nerve holds out.
     
  13. critter

    critter Member

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    OBL is one thing only---------RICH. With a little money in a severly impoverished region, he can 'command' many people if he plays his 'cards' (cash!) correctly.

    The things they do are really rather simple and just require the patience to do a lot of tries to get SOME of them right.
     
  14. Arc-Lite

    Arc-Lite Member

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    the story on osama...is ongoing, and the final chapter is not yet written. he has taken advantange of an existing condition, and become its "leader"....leading from holes in the ground, and knowing at anytime, someone might step out from a bush, and slit his throat. from a directors stand point, he has had some success, and has had many failed plans, lost countries... and had more bad days then good. overall, he has given a new ralley cry, for his people to stand to... one we will be fighting, for many many years to come. when hate is your focus, reason is unimportant
     
  15. IZinterrogator

    IZinterrogator Member

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    He is good at brainwashing young Muslims, but that is it. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the true brains behind his operation, IMHO. Too bad for Osama that he is in custody.
     
  16. joab

    joab Member

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    He got lucky, our own cockiness and lack of attention to detail and unwillingness to play dirty had as much to do with his successful attacks as anything he did
    That's hard? He simply put a face on a sentiment already active in the world
    Again he simply put a face on and gave an excuse for the government doing what they wanted to do anyway

    Hardly. He grossly miscalculated his enemy's response. In the face of overwhelming casualties ,captured officers, and inferior weapons he continues too pour more troops into a death trap with no chance of winning. Instead of retreating and regrouping.

    Since the beginning of the war every plan he has had failed, every calculation has been wrong.
    America did not run at the sight of her own blood
    America did not demand the withdrawal of troops when the body count got too high
    No government openly rallied to his side
    The Iraqi people and all of Islam did not rise up against America
     
  17. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Interesting choice for example. A woman who spent her life helping others paired with a communist & former terrorist.
     
  18. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Smart? Perhaps.

    Cunning? Yes.

    Genius? Not hardly.

    His strategy to bring down the U.S., destroy Israel and convert the world to Islam has produced very poor yields. IMAO, his .org would have been better served with many smaller, dispersed attack that would have motivated the U.S. and its populace into a venomous anti-Islamic hatred, resulting in the burning of Mosques arcross the nation, while putting the financial and manpower resources available to it to appearing as a helpfull, though dedicated movement to aid mankind in general. Bombs/attacks on the enemies homeland, food, aid and education to the "oppressed masses".
     
  19. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Defending his homeland by waging war all over Europe and North Africa? Nope.
     
  20. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Here is my take on OBL and Al-Qaeda.

    The various scumbag Arab dicatorships running the Middle East have made the United States (along with Israel, of course) the scapegoat for all their problems for the last 50 years or so. And while there is no doubt that dumb US policies over the decades have created some of it, the bulk of it is politically convenient propaganda drivel with little basis in reality, repeated so often for so long that it has become accepted truth over there.

    Osama didn't create the anti-American sentiment in the Middle East we have seen. He has exploited it skillfully for his own ends, but it has been a long time coming. If somebody else had blown up the world trade center, folks in the Middle East would still have thrown block parties like they did on 9/11.

    Bin Laden isn't a genius. 9/11 was clever up to a point, but alot about it was also stupid and sloppy, e.g. retarded Arabs skipping pilot classes on the days they taught landing. Mostly he's a religious fanatic, a cult leader with more cash and guns than usual who is good at manipulating the bitter losers of the world.

    I think it is a mistake to look at Bin Laden as the leader of a group that is just using terrorism as a strategy to accomplish a particular set of practical goals. Consider this: if their goal is to get infidels (i.e., us) out of the Middle East, 9/11 caused the exact OPPOSITE to happen. Furthermore, until 9/11, U.S. involvement in the Middle East was actually at a low ebb; we just weren't that interested in it, and with stable oil prices and not much else going on, we were getting less interested and involved in it every day. If Al-Qaeda had ANY practical goal to do ANYTHING in the Middle East, 9/11 was on the face of it the dumbest thing to do. Which raises the question, if a nutjob Islamic offshoot group doesn't want infidels out of the Middle East, what could they possibly want?

    The answer is, 9/11 wasn't meant to accomplish anything practical. It was meant as a gesture, a way for psychological misfits to act out a fantasy in their head about how God loved them and hated everyone that wasn't in their little club of a-holes. It wasn't meant to impress the US to do or not do anything, it was meant to show off to the home audience of mental midgets in the Middle East.

    Ultimately I think we've over-estimated them in the wake of 9/11 (me included). They are mean and clever, but ultimately delusional losers fighting a loser's game. That doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, or that we don't need to wipe them out, just that we've tended to blow them out of proportion.
     
  21. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    OBL was smart enough to wage war against the US economy. Where he screwed up was thinking like an Arab. Symbols are more important that achieving results. If he was interested in doing a number on the US, his four planes would have been targeted on the White House, Pentagon, Congress, and the Supreme Court. Now that would have smarted. Instead he was grandstanding to the arab street by attacking hated symbols. He violated rule one of realpolitik. . . .If you take a shot at the king you had better kill him. So now the US is PO'd and in his backyard.

    OBL is Elvis. Zawahiri is Col. Tom Parker.
     
  22. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    I'd go as far as to say the "waging war against the US economy" was just an side-effect, not something he seriously considered. I think it is more important to them that the fact that the attack worked better than they thought it would proves that God loves them.

    :barf:
     
  23. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "he is the luckest SOB that ever walked the face of this Earth."

    Other than, say, Christina Onassis.

    "Bin Laden is the son of the Yemeni-born owner of a leading Saudi construction company. Born into great wealth, he is believed to have inherited as much as $300 million when his father died in the 1960's."
    ________

    Mandela and Mother Teresa = 2 Nobel Peace Prizes.
    OBL = still on the run
     
  24. Fletchette

    Fletchette Member

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    Interesting responses.

    The reason I asked is that I think we, as a nation, are dangerously close to underestimating our enemy. By thinking of Al Quaeda as simply a bunch of savages who hide in caves, we apply tactics to combat savages. Thusfar, our strategy remains ineffective. Osama is still free.

    It is very tempting to insult the enemy, especially after a vicious attack. However, if they were so stupid, they would not have been successful.

    It is my opinion that, if we want to truly win this war with Islamofacism, we will have to be very calculated and stike at their weaknesses. Right now, we are winning tactically but losing strategically. It will do us no good to kill a thousand of them every day if they increase their ranks, through converts and birthrates, by 2000 per day.
     
  25. Rebar

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    We are winning strategically. We're using the weapon called "democracy", a weapon the islamofacists hate and fear. And it's taking off in the Middle East, Afganistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, heck last week or so, Kuwait decided to let women vote! Free elections, women voting, a real representaive government, these things makes bin Laden wet his diapers.

    Why? Because as democracy brings these 13th century tribal societies into the modern age, his brand of islam loses a lot of its appeal. And instread of blaming the west and America for all it's problems, they'll be able to actually do something about it.
     
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