Is Speer handgun data questionable? (9mm specific)

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azrocks

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My very first attempt ever at reloading was using Speer's data, as their 124grain TMJ-RN bullets were the exact same length as the 124g Armscorp FMJ-RN bullets I had on hand. Their starting load using Power Pistol with this bullet, at 1.135" OAL, is 5.6 grains. I duplicated this load, with the only exceptions being my OAL very slightly increased to 1.140 OAL (average), and using Winchester primers instead of CCI.

Compared to Federal Champion 124g rounds, which are supposed to run at ~1090 fps, these rounds had significantly more recoil, even though Speer shows 1033 fps for this starting load. (Note: I checked for setback repeatedly - using the 'press test' as well as chambering the rounds. This was not an issue).

Then I started looking through data from other manufacturers, and most everyone else is showing ~5.7 grains as being the max load with similar bullets!

Not having a chrono I'm kind of limited, but is this a known issue? Is there any way the primer alone could account for this? Or am I missing something?
 
My very first attempt ever at reloading was using Speer's data, as their 124grain TMJ-RN bullets were the exact same length as the 124g Armscorp FMJ-RN bullets I had on hand. Their starting load using Power Pistol with this bullet, at 1.135" OAL, is 5.6 grains. I duplicated this load, with the only exceptions being my OAL very slightly increased to 1.140 OAL (average), and using Winchester primers instead of CCI.

Compared to Federal Champion 124g rounds, which are supposed to run at ~1090 fps, these rounds had significantly more recoil, even though Speer shows 1033 fps for this starting load. (Note: I checked for setback repeatedly - using the 'press test' as well as chambering the rounds. This was not an issue).

Then I started looking through data from other manufacturers, and most everyone else is showing ~5.7 grains as being the max load with similar bullets!

Not having a chrono I'm kind of limited, but is this a known issue? Is there any way the primer alone could account for this? Or am I missing something?

Please don't take offence azrocks, but you have too many variables to start asking whether or not Speer's 9mm load data is questionable. First off, the 124g Armscorp FMJ-RN bullets you're using, even though very similar to Speer's 124g TMJ-RN bullets, they are not identical. Nor are you using the same cases Speer used when they developed their load data. And substituting Winchester primers for CCI primers - who knows? I sure don't.:)
Lastly, trying to compare the recoil from your handloads to the recoil of Federal factory ammo that claims 124 grain bullets at 1090 fps is not a good way to determine whether or not the load data you're using is questionable. I wish we lived near one another - we could get out and shoot your handloads, as well as your factory loads, across my chronograph. The fact is, I'd be mighty surprised if you're getting anywhere near 1090 fps from those Federal factory loads, and you're probably not getting what Speer claims from your handloads either.
You're right though about the load data in the Speer Manual - starting load of 5.6 grains of Power Pistol. And you're right about the load data from other manufactures for similar bullets - 5.7 grains of Power Pistol being max (at least in my Hornady Manual). However, I also have a Hodgdon Manual sitting in front of me, and it shows 6.6 grains of Power Pistol behind a 125 grain FMJ for 1235 fps as max.
At any rate, no, I don't think that in this case Speer's data is questionable. I think Federal's claim of 124 grain bullets at 1090 fps with their Champion 9mm ammo might be slightly inflated. But if you call Speer and ask them about their load data when you're using different bullets, different cases, different primers, and a different gun, they're just going give you a curt, and not at all diplomatic answer. Believe me - I've been there myself!:)
 
When you can't match an exact recipe, the smart move is look at all the data sources you can find and try and find a consensus for the starting load for the powder you plan to use and a "similar" bullet.

Its been a long time since I cared about what the actual velocity is as I no longer need to make a "power factor" for matches, YMMV. I'll mix my trial load alternating it in the mag or cylinder with the load I use as my "standard". If its not obvious which is which when shooting I'll call it good, if it is obvious I'll adjust up or down as necessary as long a I stay comfortably below listed maximums.

So from your description I'd back off about 0.5gr and see how they compare to your Federal factory ammo and tweak until you are satisfied.
 
Please don't take offence azrocks, but you have too many variables to start asking whether or not Speer's 9mm load data is questionable. First off, the 124g Armscorp FMJ-RN bullets you're using, even though very similar to Speer's 124g TMJ-RN bullets, they are not identical. Nor are you using the same cases Speer used when they developed their load data. And substituting Winchester primers for CCI primers - who knows? I sure don't.:)
Lastly, trying to compare the recoil from your handloads to the recoil of Federal factory ammo that claims 124 grain bullets at 1090 fps is not a good way to determine whether or not the load data you're using is questionable. I wish we lived near one another - we could get out and shoot your handloads, as well as your factory loads, across my chronograph. The fact is, I'd be mighty surprised if you're getting anywhere near 1090 fps from those Federal factory loads, and you're probably not getting what Speer claims from your handloads either.
You're right though about the load data in the Speer Manual - starting load of 5.6 grains of Power Pistol. And you're right about the load data from other manufactures for similar bullets - 5.7 grains of Power Pistol being max (at least in my Hornady Manual). However, I also have a Hodgdon Manual sitting in front of me, and it shows 6.6 grains of Power Pistol behind a 125 grain FMJ for 1235 fps as max.
At any rate, no, I don't think that in this case Speer's data is questionable. I think Federal's claim of 124 grain bullets at 1090 fps with their Champion 9mm ammo might be slightly inflated. But if you call Speer and ask them about their load data when you're using different bullets, different cases, different primers, and a different gun, they're just going give you a curt, and not at all diplomatic answer. Believe me - I've been there myself!:)

No offense taken, sir, and I greatly appreciate your response. I hear you... I have more than one ball in the air regarding variables, and without a chrono it's really all just a guess. That will be the next item on my list.

Nothing showed signs of overpressure - at least not signs I may or may not be able to recognize at this point - and the recoil wasn't excessive. But I'll definitely be experimenting down from 5.6 rather than up, with this combination of components.
 
Its been a long time since I cared about what the actual velocity is as I no longer need to make a "power factor" for matches, YMMV. I'll mix my trial load alternating it in the mag or cylinder with the load I use as my "standard". If its not obvious which is which when shooting I'll call it good, if it is obvious I'll adjust up or down as necessary as long a I stay comfortably below listed maximums.

Many thanks. Yep, that's exactly what I did, although I didn't alternate. Instead I loaded the first half of the mag w/ factory, the second half with reloads. I'll start working my way down as you suggest.
 
For the most part Speer data is pretty good when using the same barrel length since they tend to use real guns. Of course that doesn't mean you don't have a "fast" barrel and they used a "slow" one, or vice versa. I have two 5" 1911 in the same caliber and one is consistently 50ish FPS faster. Go figure. :)
 
I don't think Speer-Alliant Powder data is reliable to use when substituting other brand bullets. My experience with Speer 124 gr. FMJ and Gold Dots with Speer data is that their maximum is higher than I like to load. My experience is that if you back off three tenths to one half grain from Speers maximum that the loads are a lot more pleasant and easier on your pistol and brass. The extra few tenths to reach maximum only gains me about 50 fps which isn't much. Only other thing I'd add is that I find Win primers a little bit hotter than CCI 500's and velocity will be slightly higher but not much.
 
My very first attempt ever at reloading was using Speer's data, as their 124grain TMJ-RN bullets were the exact same length as the 124g Armscorp FMJ-RN bullets I had on hand. Their starting load using Power Pistol with this bullet, at 1.135" OAL, is 5.6 grains. I duplicated this load, with the only exceptions being my OAL very slightly increased to 1.140 OAL (average), and using Winchester primers instead of CCI.

Compared to Federal Champion 124g rounds, which are supposed to run at ~1090 fps, these rounds had significantly more recoil, even though Speer shows 1033 fps for this starting load. (Note: I checked for setback repeatedly - using the 'press test' as well as chambering the rounds. This was not an issue).

Then I started looking through data from other manufacturers, and most everyone else is showing ~5.7 grains as being the max load with similar bullets!

Not having a chrono I'm kind of limited, but is this a known issue? Is there any way the primer alone could account for this? Or am I missing something?
A chronograph would certainly benefit you as a loader trying to "mimic" loads. You can get a decent Caldwell or Shootinf Crony starting around $80-100 or so and it is a worthwhile investment for any loader in my opinion. Going back to the subject at hand; Federal Champion aluminum case that I have on had is clicking off at a whopping 1097fps average right now from a Glock 17. That is for a 115 pill at I believe an advertised 1150 so the theory of the 124 being below advertised is most likely accurate although this is obviously an apples to oranges comparison with 115vs124. As far as Speers data, I have always found it to be well researched and good performing. What cases were you using for this load? I would do a H20 test weight and compare your findings vs what Speer cases used. If the brass your using is "tighter" on internal volume your loads may well be much higher pressure than Speers even with the same powder and charge weight. Power Pistol is a good powder for top velocity in 9mm, and doesn't work that great for "slow" loads as it is a peppy propellent best suited to upper end loads. I use it for my max loads with 124 XTPs and Winchester 124 FMJs and get superb accuracy from both with PP. I use CCI primers though, haven't used the Winchester. Bottom line, if you don't have a chronograph you have no choice but to go by manual Data and how each load shoots. As long as you mimic proper powder charge alone with case volume and OAL primer brand shouldn't in itself be enough to cause any I'll issues so keep those things in check and have fun with it. Advise though, just buy a chronograph lol. Good luck.
 
I think a lot of new handloaders try to mimic factory because they think that factory is some kind of Gold Standard. It may or it may not be. One of the reasons we handload is to craft ammo to our exact situation for the best results. You may or may not even know just exactly at this point what it is your trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I didn't know this when I started.

What most of us try to do is develop a load that does exactly what we want. The first thing you should do is decide what are you going to do with the ammo. Competition target shooting? Plinking at tin cans? Hunting? Just looking for something to shoot that is inexpensive? A big powerful bang and flame?

Once you decide on that, consider the actual gun and then select powders and bullets that are consistent with your goals. Once you figure that out, start with charges at the low end, make approx. 10 rounds. The up the charge by about .2 grains and make another 10 rounds. Continue increasing until you are close to the max. charge. Make sure you can ID the different lots.

Take your test ammo to the range and shoot all ten into one target. Note the accuracy and grouping for each load. Also note the feel and recoil. Check the primers and cases for signs of over pressure.

There should be 1 or 2 loads that are standouts. Take those loads and further tweek, experiment with OAL, bullet and so forth. You will be able to tell when you are in the ballpark. Finally narrow it down to your favorite and load up a couple hundred for further testing. If all is then well, go into production. It should take a 100 rounds probably more to get close to your perfect load.

Don't worry about brand of primer, .01 of bullet setback or crimp or .1grains of powder as long as your not at the top of the load range. You are close to the +/- tolerance of your powder measures and test equipment. And as another poster mentioned, check several load books and try to form a general load consensus. Most of us have numerous load manuals, buy used on amazon or ebay.

BTW, if you want soft shooting ammo use a faster powder and a heavier bullet. I mentioned this in another post to you, some might disagree with me but I do not think of Power Pistol as a finesse powder. I have 4 pounds of it and have no idea what I'm going to do with it. I know some love it but in my opinion soft shooting and power pistol do not belong in the same sentence. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it place.

ON EDIT: Again regarding load manuals. You should get several of them. As anyone on this forum that pays attention to what I post they know that I'm not a fan of Lee Precision. However, for the beginner, the Lee book 2nd edition is one you should get because it has a lot of loads. Hornady is my favorite, Lyman is good and the Annual put out by Hodgdon is good. Collect 'em all I like to say. Allow me to say this in as friendly way possible, if your expecting to save a ton of money on this pursuit do yourself a big favor and stop now before it's too late. This hobby will suck the life out of your soul and the money out of your wallet. It's a drug that has no mercy. But it's fun, at least it has that going for it. :D
 
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Not having a chrono I'm kind of limited, but is this a known issue? Is there any way the primer alone could account for this? Or am I missing something?

The only thing you are missing is time and experience. I have only been reloading for just over 2-1/2 years and I still learn something new all of the time. I have spreadsheets, notebooks, reloading manuals, piles of paper, sticky notes and a headache!
Change only one thing or component slightly and everything changes. Even if just slightly. Each and every load is unique and although close to another load you will get different results- even in the way it feels when you shoot them. I had loaded some Zero 125 Gr. JHP with both AutoComp and 700X. As I shot them both I had thought that the AutoComp loads had to be close to if not over the max load. I actually stopped shooting the AutoComp loads until I was able to chrono them. As it turns out, the AutoComp loads were 30 FPS average less than the 700X and well within all of my load manuals lower to mid-range loads. It is all perception and a lot of guessing until you have access to a chronograph.
I spend less time now documenting every single tiny detail and just record all of my load data on a spreadsheet and dial them in based on FPS and accuracy when using expanding JHP's and feel of shooting when making plinking rounds.
Every gun, even if the same make and model will have different readings- like the @Walkalong example with 50 FPS difference.
What changed everything for me was when I bought my $85.00 chronograph. It ties all of the lose ends together and gives me a solid base to build on and work from.
Be patient, be safe and enjoy the madness that is reloading.
 
I think a lot of new handloaders try to mimic factory because they think that factory is some kind of Gold Standard. It may or it may not be. One of the reasons we handload is to craft ammo to our exact situation for the best results. You may or may not even know just exactly at this point what it is your trying to accomplish. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I didn't know this when I started.

What most of us try to do is develop a load that does exactly what we want. The first thing you should do is decide what are you going to do with the ammo. Competition target shooting? Plinking at tin cans? Hunting? Just looking for something to shoot that is inexpensive? A big powerful bang and flame?

Once you decide on that, consider the actual gun and then select powders and bullets that are consistent with your goals. Once you figure that out, start with charges at the low end, make approx. 10 rounds. The up the charge by about .2 grains and make another 10 rounds. Continue increasing until you are close to the max. charge. Make sure you can ID the different lots.

Take your test ammo to the range and shoot all ten into one target. Note the accuracy and grouping for each load. Also note the feel and recoil. Check the primers and cases for signs of over pressure.

There should be 1 or 2 loads that are standouts. Take those loads and further tweek, experiment with OAL, bullet and so forth. You will be able to tell when you are in the ballpark. Finally narrow it down to your favorite and load up a couple hundred for further testing. If all is then well, go into production. It should take a 100 rounds probably more to get close to your perfect load.

Don't worry about brand of primer, .01 of bullet setback or crimp or .1grains of powder as long as your not at the top of the load range. You are close to the +/- tolerance of your powder measures and test equipment. And as another poster mentioned, check several load books and try to form a general load consensus. Most of us have numerous load manuals, buy used on amazon or ebay.

BTW, if you want soft shooting ammo use a faster powder and a heavier bullet. I mentioned this in another post to you, some might disagree with me but I do not think of Power Pistol as a finesse powder. I have 4 pounds of it and have no idea what I'm going to do with it. I know some love it but in my opinion soft shooting and power pistol do not belong in the same sentence. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it place.

ON EDIT: Again regarding load manuals. You should get several of them. As anyone on this forum that pays attention to what I post they know that I'm not a fan of Lee Precision. However, for the beginner, the Lee book 2nd edition is one you should get because it has a lot of loads. Hornady is my favorite, Lyman is good and the Annual put out by Hodgdon is good. Collect 'em all I like to say. Allow me to say this in as friendly way possible, if your expecting to save a ton of money on this pursuit do yourself a big favor and stop now before it's too late. This hobby will suck the life out of your soul and the money out of your wallet. It's a drug that has no mercy. But it's fun, at least it has that going for it. :D
Aggree with everything said above. One thing I will add that is great for loading is the caliber specific manuals. The big books are great and I have Noslers, Speer, Hornady, Etc but the caliber specific books are great because they take all of the loads from all of the major books and put them in one small easy to navigate manual. There like 5-6 bucks and for me have always come in handy during load development. I can see what Speer Hornady and Nosler are all doing just by flipping a couple pages, not going to different publicAtions. Just a thought.
Also, I certainly aggree Power Pistol is not well suited to soft shooting loads. For me if I want a soft recoiling load, I go to HP-38/W231. With a moderate load of that powder behind any projectile weight you can get a very easy shooting and accurate load. I use HP38 loads for rapid fire "play time" and training new shooters. I think my throw for 9mm is somewhere around 4.2gr with a 124 FMJ. The load is nearly as tame as you can get in 9mm and still function in a stock production handgun but it maintains decent accuracy, it's cost efficient and a great load for plinking or new shooters. I can empty a full Glock 17 mag of these loads one handed as fast as I can pull the trigger into a 6" paper plate and easily keep them all on the plate. Not that 9mm has much recoil in general, but if I were to take my 124 XTP loads with Power Pistol and do the same test a few would land just outside the 6" plate shooting one handed purely from the additional muzzle rise.
 
I can't thank you all enough for your input! This forum rocks, and in particular, this section of it. Wish I had gotten into reloading a LONG time ago!

I'm only aiming to match factory loads at the moment - in terms of recoil for the same bullet weight - as that's my only available 'chrono'. I know the factory rounds are safe in terms of pressure, so if my rounds 'feel' about the same, I'm assuming I'm likely also safe with them. Yes, I am examining for signs of overpressure, but I'm not yet confident that I know what to look for or how to correctly interpret it. So... when my 124g rounds at Speer's starting point recoiled heavier than the Federal Champions, I got a bit concerned :eek:

I actually did do exactly as you suggest, Thomas: I loaded 20 rounds @ 5.6, 20 @ 5.75, 20 @ 5.9, & 20 @ 6. But when my baselines hit heavier than factory, I got a bit nervous. I went up to 5.9 with no issues, examining cases in-between each group, but I thought I'd just give up on working up further. All I wanted is reliable function & good accuracy, and I got that at 5.6 in every 9mm handgun I brought with me.

Ghost - you hit on my weak point. I want to be able to estimate the cumulative effects of various component combinations based on various sources of data, but I see now that can't really be done. That helps a lot.

Deadeye - I've still got a pound of Titegroup I haven't opened. I'm going to play with that next in an attempt to make softer-shooting loads.

hdwhit - I'm glad someone knew what it was :D
 
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BTW, if you want soft shooting ammo use a faster powder and a heavier bullet. I mentioned this in another post to you, some might disagree with me but I do not think of Power Pistol as a finesse powder. I have 4 pounds of it and have no idea what I'm going to do with it. I know some love it but in my opinion soft shooting and power pistol do not belong in the same sentence. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have it place.
You'll get no argument from me about Power Pistol not belonging in the same sentence as "soft shooting" thomas15. But if you really don't know what to do with the 4 pounds of Power Pistol you have, send it to me - I sometimes use loads in my handguns that could be classified as anything but "soft shooting.":)
 
All I wanted is reliable function & good accuracy, and I got that at 5.6 in every 9mm handgun I brought with me.

Just a quick note. You can also work backwards. Something I do frequently for plinking type loads and might be beneficial as a safety check without a chrono. Take your starting load of 5.6 and load 5 @ 5.5 and 5 at 5.4 etc. until you find the point that your gun will not reliably cycle and add.2 grains to that and load away. You will know you are well within the safe zone for that load.
Use this as a learning tool and not fact- you need to work this out on your own based on your findings, equipment, powder etc. and not based on what I do- this is only what works for me.
 
I can't thank you all enough for your input! This forum rocks, and in particular, this section of it. Wish I had gotten into reloading a LONG time ago!

I'm only aiming to match factory loads at the moment - in terms of recoil for the same bullet weight - as that's my only available 'chrono'. I know the factory rounds are safe in terms of pressure, so if my rounds 'feel' about the same, I'm assuming I'm likely also safe with them. Yes, I am examining for signs of overpressure, but I'm not yet confident that I know what to look for or how to correctly interpret it. So... when my 124g rounds at Speer's starting point recoiled heavier than the Federal Champions, I got a bit concerned :eek:

I actually did do exactly as you suggest, Thomas: I loaded 20 rounds @ 5.6, 20 @ 5.75, 20 @ 5.9, & 20 @ 6. But when my baselines hit heavier than factory, I got a bit nervous. I went up to 5.9 with no issues, examining cases in-between each group, but I thought I'd just give up on working up further. All I wanted is reliable function & good accuracy, and I got that at 5.6 in every 9mm handgun I brought with me.

Ghost - you hit on my weak point. I want to be able to estimate the cumulative effects of various component combinations based on various sources of data, but I see now that can't really be done. That helps a lot.

Deadeye - I've still got a pound of Titegroup I haven't opened. I'm going to play with that next in an attempt to make softer-shooting loads.

hdwhit - I'm glad someone knew what it was :D
TiteGroup works ok for economical easy shooting loads. You can go with like 3.3gr and a 147 around 1.15" and have a soft shooting economy target load that actually groups quite well. With a 124 FMJ I run 4.2gr @1.255". I don't use TG much these days but there was a while when the loads I mentioned above were my go to economy/target loads and I shot a ton of them. These days though I load my 9/.357/45 pretty much strictly using HP38, CFEPistol, and PowerPistol. The economy/target loads get the HP-38 but I have no complaints about the period when using Titegroup it just became hard to get for a while locally so I switched to the HP38. As long as your mindful of charge weights TIteGroup will serve you well. Just don't get distracted because it's a very dense powder and easier to overlook a heavily charged case than with other powders. Oh and yea, this forum does ROCK! Lol Good luck.
 
TiteGroup is a great powder for 9mm. As are a host of others.
As noted above, check multiple sources before loading. Last night I looked up a 125 jacketed load with Power Pistol in Lee #2. It was in the sixes. Lee isn't that careful about where he gets his data, usually from older sources.
One other thing is about checking for signs of pressure. They don't usually show up until you are way over pressure. So if you see them, stop and go back to the books. A better thing to look at is slide velocity. If it acts like it's really hammering the gun back off a bit. :uhoh:
 
Not having a chrono I'm kind of limited, but is this a known issue? Is there any way the primer alone could account for this? Or am I missing something?

The Speer manual is as good as any of the others. Without a chrono all perceptions of velocity from recoil is conjecture.

Different components will yield different results. Bullets from different manufacturers have different amounts of bearing surface in the bore as well as different bore resistance. Manuals are guides not a source of exact result prediction. Different primers yield different velocities. This is just the nature of reloading. So many variable that every set of components are a rule to themselves which is what makes it an interesting hobby rather than just looking up the ideal load and assembling ammunition.
 
You can also work backwards. Something I do frequently for plinking type loads and might be beneficial as a safety check without a chrono. Take your starting load of 5.6 and load 5 @ 5.5 and 5 at 5.4 etc. until you find the point that your gun will not reliably cycle

I did that once, for a different reason.
 
To find the slowest velocity that will cycle you gun. Quite common for BE shooters to be below min charge levels on there loads. There looking for a balance where the muzzle is back on target without dip. Remember their using 1 hand grip.
 
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