Is the demill process of U.S. surplus ammo law?

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Decoy80

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I'm just a normal guy and ask this seeking to understand this expensive and inherintly unsafe practice. I cant make common sense work out why the taxpayer has to pay to unload small arms ammo, only then can he buy it in its parts at inflated prices and reassemble it. The powder gets mixed and sold with no safe load data. If it is law why is it wise to create danger and waste money we are borrowing to do this. If Ive put this in the wrong place to ask delete it Mr. Frank
 
I be curious to know exactly what is going on and why. I've seen bullets pulled from military surplus small arms cartridges being sold as reloading components. I seem to recall cartridge cases being sold, but I don't know if they are from disassembled cartridges or once-fired brass. I have not seen propellant from broken down cartridges or shells for sale to ordinary consumers. And I've heard of the demilling of things like artillery shells and RPGs to allow for safe disposal.

But let's keep this focused on well documented information. There are no doubt many rumors and myths about this subject.
 
There are several sources of powder , pulled bullets ,and primed cases from the process. I agree that some ammunition espically mission dictated is of little use for the normal citizen. I will list a couple of sites so if interested you may survey the wares. patsreloading.com ,americanreloading.com and I have personally bought from both sites in the past. They are not the only sources just the ones Ive dealt with. I cant remember when the last time our surplus was readily available. We used to have a lot of fun for cheap shooting it when I was a younger man. It could possibly have been done by an exeutive order.
 
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buying surplus military brass is easy. but the closest place to buy is an AFB inn Monotana. everywhere else is on thee east coast. one score at an auction and i would be sit for life and could sell the rest off.
 
I've never seen primed military brass for sale. Nor have I seen unprimed military brass for sale. It's all been fired. At least on the .gov sites I haunt.
 
Last time this came up in '09-'10 it was an internal DoD directive--got caught up in a greater effort to keep weapon and ammo parts out of the hands of terrorists. The military can do what they want with their brass before selling it. Both Senators from Montana got involved and the military exempted small arms cartridges under 20mm (changed their classification from munitions to government property).

Mike
 
The primary reason ammunition is demilled is because of powder deterioration. Gunpowder has an "indefinite" lifetime. The wording is subtle, and some have miss read indefinite, which means unknown, as infinite, which means forever. Gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down from day one to a low energy compound, which means it follows the second law of thermodynamics. In this, the real universe, the laws of thermodynamics apply to everything. Because gunpowder does not deteriorate according to a predictable timetable, first world nations spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year going through ammunition stockpiles, identifying ammunition in which the propellant is too old and too dangerous to keep in inventory, and that ammunition is broken down. Poorer countries simply let their ammunition depots explode.


Even though the Small Arms Survey group is anti gun, anti war, they have the best information on the amount of weapons and ammunition in the public domain.


If you are interested in more information on this topic:

Stockpiles http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/index.php?id=334


And a short treatise on Industrial Demilitarization of Conventional Ammunition

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/H-Research_Notes/SAS-Research-Note-37.pdf


For many, the idea that ammunition does not last forever, and the humongous amount of ammunition that is demilled every year is absolutely beyond their comprehension. But all someone has to do is search the internet and they will find lots of information.

b]Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition [/B]

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx


Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.

* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.



Anyway, gunpowder from demilled ammunition is just at the point of being dangerous. Its shelf life has been used up. Old gunpowder will auto combust and it burns un predictably, both of which have burnt houses and blown up firearms. I do not know where to find the policy, but I believe the US Government figured out sales of surplus powders was a bad thing, due to house fires, and disallowed the selling of any more old surplus powders from US inventories. I do not know where sellers are getting their current stock of surplus powders, but the amount on the market is not as much as when Talon was selling.

I found old surplus gunpowder not to be a bargain. I bought kegs of the stuff before I found out about the problems of old gunpowder. I have poured out about three quarters of all surplus gunpowders because they had gone bad. If I had spent that money on buying new powders, I would saved money because I would have had useable gunpowder.

Even surplus cases can have issues. As gunpowder deteriorates it releases nitric acid gas. Nitric acid gas attacks brass. I have had, and seen, cracked case heads, neck splits, body splits, from old brass. Condition of demilled brass can vary considerably. If it is dirt cheap, it can be worth buying, even if you have issues.
 
If those sites I mentioned prevouisly are the only places to buy demilled powder I would be surprised. I would still like to know if the practice is policy, or actually by law. In the recent past several sellers have advertised milsurp ammo imported from other countries.
 
"I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years."

To take the simplest way of doing the math, that would mean that 30 year old ammunition would be 70 to 80% duds. My experience with e.g. surplus Garand ammo from CMP suggests a somewhat lower rate of duds. I'm not sure how much lower, because I'm still waiting for my first failure. This is 40+ year old stuff.
 
I tried to show a friend who was in disbelief that military powder would burn when wet and what is sold commercially. I poured some of each on my concrete shop floor and watered both down. The military powder came from some 1953 ammo. The commercial ball powder was new. He now is a true believer as the military powder has left a permanent black burn line in my floor and the commercial wouldnt light. The demilling of most small arms ammo commonly used by the public anyway is a waste of taxpayer money and inflates our practice cost. Id still like to know if law dictates this or if it is due to executive action changing policy.
 
Jeff Bartlett at GIBrass often has 'pulldown' powder, sometimes bullets as well, which I understand to mean it came from broken down small arms ammo, although I'm not positive. His brass is usually described as once fired military or commercial.. Sometimes at slightly less cost v. commercial, nothing to get too excited about.
 
Jeff Bartlett at GIBrass often has 'pulldown' powder, sometimes bullets as well, which I understand to mean it came from broken down small arms ammo, although I'm not positive. His brass is usually described as once fired military or commercial.. Sometimes at slightly less cost v. commercial, nothing to get too excited about.
I bought 223 from pats reloading primed from pulldown. I took the pin out of the sizing die and just resized it. The old military primers were sealed and I had no failure to fire out out ok 2k. I wasnt even going to full resize and loaded a few but some wouldnt cycle. A neck sizer probably would have done even better. I believe they had primed 308 from pulldown.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is not law, simply because the policy has changed several times in the past few years. If it were law that would require congressional action. Same with the destruction of all the M1 rifles on Bill Clinton's watch, and the sale of fired brass cases.
 
Thanks for the posts but I don't think I know the why of the reason US surplus small arms ammo is all demilled with exception of that ammunition the CMP guy's are getting. If there was a range near me, I mean a public one where you can meet other Shooters with similar interests, not mine as My wife gets upset if I just shoot from the open door.
I've never been able to find every piece of brass and they do bounce off the walls when I don't step out of the doors. I think it's worse in the living room lol. I have my junk and loading table in the back room with the outside door. There it's not as bad but I will spray for bugs and I haven't seen any spiders in quite some time, imagine that. Mr. Frank thanks for your patience and understanding. It's knowledge I seek to find being my main goal and THR is serving well when that is concerned. If you want go ahead and close the thread I don't think it will be productive in my opinion to keep it going.
 
http://asc.army.mil/docs/pubs/alt/2...ion_(Demil)_--_A_Growing_Challenge_200801.pdf

This article discusses the demilitarization process and highlights changes to the law made in 2007 to allow the military to turn back part of the proceeds to help fund the demilitarization process.
Thanks for posting the link. The way it sounds to me by law the Military will choose what,when,where , and can sell scrap to help fund the demill process. I gathered it meant all military ammunition small arms to missles. Broad range.
 
I've never seen primed military brass for sale. Nor have I seen unprimed military brass for sale. It's all been fired. At least on the .gov sites I haunt.
I bought a couple thousand pieces of unfired Lake City 13 brass in the fall of 2014. Offered commercially from an outfit in Missouri. Also have purchased M193 and SS109 new bullets - not pulled.
 
It's hard to prove a negative (that a law does not exist proscribing a practice). But the widespread practice of reselling mil ammo and demilled components suggest it is more likely variations in executive branch practice than a law passed by Congress.

There do seem to be more concerted efforts to keep the newer M855A1 and M80A1 (lead free) bullets out of the hands of ordinary citizens. I can't think of any commercial suppliers (loaded or pulled). However, the volume of videos seem to indicate citizens are getting their hands on them somehow.

The older original M855 and M80 (and APM2) are still widely available, though the APM2 is rapidly rising in price, I think because the original supplies are running low and no more are being made. It is hard to tell if all the M855s are surplus or if Federal/ATK is still making them to meet market demand. I would bet ATK is still making them. Market demand is steady, and citizens are paying a lot more for them than the Army ever did.
 
There do seem to be more concerted efforts to keep the newer M855A1 and M80A1 (lead free) bullets out of the hands of ordinary citizens. I can't think of any commercial suppliers (loaded or pulled).

From the military sources I agree.

However,

Liberty ammo was the group that first won the lawsuit regarding this round, then lost it on appeal. And, they make a bullet that is pretty close if not identical to the military round.

http://libertyammunition.com/national-defense-5-56-x-45mm

See of a local gun shop can get a PD letter and order some from them, and you get a few boxes as well as part of the order. There is no law against it in the free states.



.
 
I reckon the military can do what they want with their brass before selling it.
And we can just ignore the fact that the American taxpayer paid for it in the first:cuss:place and pay more to have it demilled, keeping American manufactured ammunition out of the hands of the Constitutionally mandated militia.
Meanwhile, surplus ammo is still available from meccas of quality like India and Pakistan, via well connected importers that can afford the grease.
 
Back in the dark ages, say 1981, I looked into bidding on a 55 gallon barrel of spent GI brass at surplus sales at Ft. Sill where I was then stationed. Un fortunately they would stack things on pine loading platforms and one had to bid on the entire platform. Four drums fit a platform. Some platforms only had one or two drums and piles of other crap, must have made then really out of balance. I wanted brass and not once worn combat boots and uniforms so was only interested in the ones with all brass......but wait there is more! They would put the loading flats on your vehicle and then it was all yours....and you forteted if you did not get your prize with in the window they set for you. Still MORE! The 55 gallon drum could have anything 20 mike-mike down in them. Actually the few they let me look at SEEMED to have few 20mm in them, but there was no way of telling if you were buying a six inch layer of 5.56/7.62/ .45ACP/ .50 BMG and an other wise full drum of steel 20mm.

Actually I wish I had four or five 6 gallon paint buckets of .50 BMG about now just for resale value, but at the time it seemed extremely useless except as "brass scrap".

I did know back then more than one GI that would drive out to the ranges on weekends when the Guard and Reserves were not on post and go "mushroom hunting" Well they wandered about with plastic buckets like Europeans hunting mushrooms but what they dropped in the buckets went clunk or klink depending on how full the bucket was already. I have on good authority that tumbled and sized .45ACP spent brass from grease guns worked just fine and that a near lifetime supply got picked up on one range one morning that summer. I was always too chicken to participate or even accept offered treasures from the folks that did so.

When I explained to one young LT that at best it was missappropriation of government property he blew me off and told of how when at one of the Ranger training phases, he said Dalanaga (up around the head waters of the Chattahoochee in Georgia), that the locals followed patrols to pick up spent blanks as they had a salvage value of about a penny a piece. I guess he heard a lot of banjos dueling during those patrols.......

-kBob
 
Back in the dark ages, say 1981, I looked into bidding on a 55 gallon barrel of spent GI brass at surplus sales at Ft. Sill where I was then stationed. Un fortunately they would stack things on pine loading platforms and one had to bid on the entire platform. Four drums fit a platform. Some platforms only had one or two drums and piles of other crap, must have made then really out of balance. I wanted brass and not once worn combat boots and uniforms so was only interested in the ones with all brass......but wait there is more! They would put the loading flats on your vehicle and then it was all yours....and you forteted if you did not get your prize with in the window they set for you. Still MORE! The 55 gallon drum could have anything 20 mike-mike down in them. Actually the few they let me look at SEEMED to have few 20mm in them, but there was no way of telling if you were buying a six inch layer of 5.56/7.62/ .45ACP/ .50 BMG and an other wise full drum of steel 20mm.

Actually I wish I had four or five 6 gallon paint buckets of .50 BMG about now just for resale value, but at the time it seemed extremely useless except as "brass scrap".

Yes the dark ages when Blatz beer was $2.50 a case at the PX. Good old days too. Youth is the best thing ever.
I think I may have brought maybe two or three 50 caliber home and thousands of belted 308 lol
 
In 1968 I fired 1933 .50 M2 ammo. I captain told us he had a range budget. The 1933 ammo was 7 cents and about 1 in 7 was a dud. The rest worked well despite having been to Europe then to Korea. We got 5X the shooting of newer stuff. Got a lot of practice clearing jams too.
 
Sure it is still good for training purposes nowadays to shoot the surplus up training our armed services and would be great for you and I to send downrange cheap.
For our armed forces purposes I fully understand the importance of fresh ammunition when it's for real,playing for keeps but the training clearing jams using the old ammunition is priceless when it's not practice, and lives are really on the line.
I know that some specialty ammunition and most of the larger than 50 caliber ammo reaches a point where it needs to be demilitarized but if our troops shot more of it in practice it would be a win win on the larger ammo too as they would be better prepared and we would save the cost of demilling it.
Sending it downrange is also safer as long as it's between the range fans than demilling.
Maybe common sense will become common again instead of becoming uncommon.
 
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