Is the PRIMARY motivation of the gun control lobby racism?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by RX-79G, Oct 17, 2016.

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  1. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    A THR member has been preaching this, going as far as saying that African Americans that support gun control are doing so in a conscious attempt at self-genocide, and that the large number of Jewish people happen to also support gun control are motivated by the same things as the Kapos in the Holocaust.


    I appear to be the only person who sees this as wrong, and have been labeled a racist for saying so.


    I would appreciate it if THR members would weigh in whether people like Sarah Brady (whose husband was shot by John Hinckley Jr) is mainly trying to take weapons away from minorities.

    If enough of you believe that the anti-gun liberals are mainly racists, I'll shut up about it.
     
  2. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I'm looking hard to see the racist motivations for current gun-control efforts, and I simply can't see racism as a primary motivating factor. In my state, a lot of the grass-roots gun-control efforts have support of the minority communities.

    We all are (or should be) familiar with the racist motivation behind gun control efforts especially in the post-Civil War era into the earlier part of the 20th century; however, the anti-gun camp these days is an entirely different kettle of fish ...
     
  3. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    History of gun control yes, it was definitely motivated by racism. Same with drug laws.

    Currently, no, lack of information, ill directed emotionality, and desire to control money is the motivation now.

    Also, I happen to be Jewish, and see many of my faith forget what happened in the holocaust. They never experienced it, were to young, had no family involved, and so they have other priorities.

    Do I think they are misguided? Heck yes. Do I think they want to die as a people? No. Also if you look at Israel, you have no semblance of the anti gun mindset in the US, as everyone is carrying a weapon and comfortable with it.
     
  4. stchman

    stchman Member

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    Gun control has its roots in racism, look at the old Jim Crow laws. The whites in power didn't want black people to have guns. The Jews of this country need only look what the Nazis did in the early stages of WWII. It is clear that gun control is NOT good.

    When one type of people are in power, they don't want what they consider "undesirables" to have means to defend themselves or be able to rise up and fight back.
     
  5. Ironicaintit

    Ironicaintit Member

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    The roots are racist, for sure. Klansmen didn't like when they caught return fire!

    Today? I don't know. I'm sure there are racist elements within that movement (in the pro-gun movement as well)
    But that's just people being people....

    Have you seen the derogatory, racist statements made by Democrats, through wiki leaks?
    They sure are a condescending bunch, to say the least
     
  6. JJE

    JJE Member

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    No. I think that the professional lobbyists - like the Brady people - are trying to solve a problem - people getting shot - but going about it in ineffective ways (magazine limits, cosmetic feature bans, waiting periods, etc) because those are the ways that they can get prominent Democratic politicians and rich liberals to support. If they were to push for life sentences for people who commit murder or attempt murder or who steal guns - which would take a lot of violent criminals off the street - they wouldn't get any support.

    Democratic politicians support these ineffective approaches because they get support and no push back from the people who give them money and votes. Basically, it rallies their rich, urban supporters and they don't care if they antagonize gun owners because they assume that gun owners aren't going to vote for them anyway.

    It boils down to institutional survival. Once the Brady Group exists, how does it stay in existence? By pushing ineffective, but palatable (to rich, urban liberals) gun control. Once a Democratic politician gets elected, how do they stay in office, or move to a higher office? By "taking on the NRA".
     
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  7. khegglie

    khegglie Member

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    Initially racist motivation, but evolved to overarching control of plebs.
     
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  8. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Don't bother, people. I've posted Bloomberg's quote on disarming all young black men (read: all people in black communities) and it didn't constitute a racial motivation for gun control in the eyes of OP, probably because he hasn't or doesn't classify what is meant by racism (it's now a very broad and overused word, nearly meaningless anymore in common discourse)
     
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  9. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Control is a core motivation of racism itself
     
  10. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    You fail to mention the equally-if-not-more prevalent practice in the Enlightened North of systematically restricting arms to (poor) urban immigrant populations. The only argument that can be made against gun control today being any less racist in origin than in years past is that they are at the stage of banning guns for everybody (blacks were originally an easier, less politically protected target)
     
  11. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    Bloomberg doesn't want to disarm black people because he is racist. He wants to disarm all people (see what he's doing in Maine), especially those who live in poor, high crime areas. To observe that black men shoot and get shot out of proportion to whites isn't any more racist than observing who gets skin cancer more. Observing race isn't the same as hating other races.


    The point of this thread is to find out of people on THR feel that today's gun control advocates, from your neighbor on up, are mostly racist in their motivation. We all know the history of Jim Crow.
     
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  12. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    Don't bother what? Because we don't agree with you?
     
  13. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    First off, it's rare that a racist person is proud about it anymore, or even aware of it, so expecting to find facially damning quotes is pointless; it must be inferred. Luckily, the definition of the term does not rely on pride nor intent, but merely the belief that one race is intrinsically superior/inferior to others (as opposed to bigotry, which is founded in baseless assumptions or misunderstanding, but does not necessarily carry the animus of true racism).

    "Don't bother what? Because we don't agree with you?"
    Because RX has repeatedly ignored my direct responses to his numerous pot-stirring comments & threads lately. When you demand to see proof that "anyone" is promoting gun control under racial reasoning, and reply "here's a guy who says all young black men & their communities should be disarmed," and claim it is irrelevant...it is either petulance or bad faith. I'm bored & laid up with a cold at the moment, so I'll indulge you both (again)

    "To observe that black men shoot and get shot out of proportion to whites isn't any more racist than observing who gets skin cancer more. Observing race isn't the same as hating other races."
    While factual, the solutions chosen as a remedy for the situation are indicative of racism (I'll get to it in a moment). Your exact comment, spoken at countless universities & public forums, would also elicit cries of racism. I won't bother proving this since it is so readily obvious, but by all means prove me wrong for a change. Perhaps suggest we ban sunscreen so dark-skinned people with slightly less need for it are not potentially harmed by the chemical run-off of all the light-skinned people who so desperately do (which is a pretty direct metaphor)

    Okay, starting from basics, here;
    1) Primary motivation for gun control is popular control (for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter what)
    2) Scared people are more willing to cede control to an authority that alleviates this pain
    3) Fear of violence/death is the only remaining fear in an industrialized setting besides poverty
    4) All else being equal, poor populations of high density always have higher a higher crime rate (a reality of economics)
    5) Since the founding of America and most multi-racial societies throughout history, race is a primary indicator of social standing (for a number of real and imagined reasons that are far outside the scope of discussions here), the result always being certain racial groups are closely associated with poverty
    6) Fear of violence (and to a lesser extent poverty) is easily linked to these crime-ridden, impoverished populations; those outside them 'reasonably' wish to be insulated
    7) Laws are passed to reduce the perceived threat from these groups, be it disarmament or housing (containment) policies. An ever-present and convenient scapegoat. And like the sacrificial scapegoats of old, harming these groups doesn't really accomplish anything useful.
    *

    Ironically, these groups are among the most resilient to gestures of police authority, crime being committed at higher rates in the first place because the reward is greater than the risk of being apprehended for a small portion of the group.

    Ironically, these groups are at far, far greater risk of violence & crime than the more well-healed people these laws are passed to protect, but the laws are far less effective at reducing the internal threat to the group than they are at lowering internal defenses against crime. It's much like destroying your entire immune system with chemo to stamp out a head cold (oops, now you don't have a means to fend off that food poisoning --better get even more chemo, that'll solve it once and for all!)

    Ironically, these groups are still overwhelmingly law-abiding (perhaps not counting those laws passed to ensnare as many as possible, like drug/weapons laws) and willingly, readily lend themselves to self defense when given the opportunity (what 'few' self defense stories you read about are frequently in bad neighborhoods in pro-gun areas)

    Okay, all that explanation & background out of the way; how does this explain that anti-gun positions are inherently racist whereas pro-gun ones are inherently egalitarian?

    -If you believe your personal group outside the ghetto/hood/skid row/poor area is more deserving of life, you seek to disarm them in the hope of making them too powerless to harm you personally. Turning them into something weaker than, less than, a free human being in modern America. Except for those who refuse to go along, and remain strong enough to plunder (and attract followers with their strength)

    -If you believe all groups are equal in their claims to and need for human rights, you want them to be as protected from each other as you yourself can be from them. This means parity of firepower at the end of the day (which in reality means access to some form of half-decent handgun anyone can afford) in modern America. In this arrangement, when the criminal element attacks inside or outside the community, there is a very real threat of effective retaliation, which weakens their social standing (and numbers) considerably, greatly decreasing the allure of criminal gang life or the need to partake.

    "What, do you want people running around the ghetto with guns all willy nilly?" --frequent refrain from gun banners, though usually at the very end of the discussion for obvious reasons. I've even heard "Do you want ghetto folk coming into your neighborhood with guns?" from time to time (which is the natural corollary to the first one. Lot of folks out there don't *hate* poor people or minorities they associate with poor people, but they just don't trust them with 600 year-old technology, either (or 10,000 year old technology in the case of places that ban slingshots & knives)

    TCB

    *The list goes further, as naturally the anti-gun narrative must eventually become 'post racial' if it is to ban guns for the entire population. But demonization of the same threatening minority poverty groups is still the primary driving factor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  14. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    Your response that gun control is effectively racist is different and separate from saying that gun control is motivated by racism.

    I agree that gun control, and many other things, disproportionately and effectively targets minorities. That just wasn't the question.
     
  15. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    You're neglecting facts at the expense of your opinion. You seem to have a problem with people not inferring what you want them to including that politicians want us all dead, colleges being liberal, and seemingly you believe you have a sociology degree?

    I didn't see RX demand anything, in fact seems like RX is expanding the discussion to others in a fair and open way.


    Either way, respectfully I always appreciate the discussion and interaction. Hope you do as well, that's the fun of the forum!
     
  16. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    No, I laid out a case for gun control advocates' motives being concealed racism; concealed with happy images of public safety.

    "-If you believe your personal group outside the ghetto/hood/skid row/poor area is more deserving of life, you seek to disarm them in the hope of making them too powerless to harm you personally. Turning them into something weaker than, less than, a free human being in modern America. Except for those who refuse to go along, and remain strong enough to plunder (and attract followers with their strength)

    -If you believe all groups are equal in their claims to and need for human rights, you want them to be as protected from each other as you yourself can be from them. This means parity of firepower at the end of the day (which in reality means access to some form of half-decent handgun anyone can afford) in modern America. In this arrangement, when the criminal element attacks inside or outside the community, there is a very real threat of effective retaliation, which weakens their social standing (and numbers) considerably, greatly decreasing the allure of criminal gang life or the need to partake."

    TCB
     
  17. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    All of that is predicated on the belief that self defense is an important component of freedom, which people who want gun control don't believe. In absence of that belief, you can't argue that there is a racial motivation to make people powerless when it isn't a power anti-gun people acknowledge or value for themselves.

    What you're talking about is like Jim Crow, where the armed whites wanted to maintain a power imbalance.
     
  18. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    IMHO gun control isn't motivated by racism but rather the media, which uses racism to spin it.

    The weekly black on black shootings that happen in Chicago get a blurp in the news, but every time a "unarmed black person with a halo around their head" gets shot by a white cop it makes national news.

    The masses only know what they see from mass media, and unfortunately most take it all as fact. Thus, racism is perceived as an issue around gun control.
     
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  19. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "I didn't see RX demand anything, in fact seems like RX is expanding the discussion to others in a fair and open way."
    Repeatedly, in the thread RX got shut down after claiming that (get this) since another poster hadn't convinced RX that racism was rampant, the other poster must therefore be racist because he'd depicted their statements/arguments in an attempt at elucidation. "Only a deviant mind could ever concoct such misdeeds as have been alleged of my client!" Uh-huh.

    "Either way, respectfully I always appreciate the discussion and interaction. Hope you do as well, that's the fun of the forum!"
    Exactly. Respect is the key part, though. When you repeatedly try to bait people into forbidden topics, repeatedly deny out of hand detailed arguments refuting your assertions, and claim to be in agreement with those you debate while clearly arguing from across the table...respect cannot be earned.

    "You're neglecting facts at the expense of your opinion. You seem to have a problem with people not inferring what you want them to including that politicians want us all dead, colleges being liberal, and seemingly you believe you have a sociology degree?"
    No problem, but my whole purpose in posting isn't just to have fun with my hands, but also to try to educate & convince others of what I feel are pretty solid positions on these issues, and if nothing else to adjust, refine, and hone my own arguments. I'm afraid what I've seen, read, and experienced in my lifetime simply does not lend itself well to a belief in a benevolent government that isn't to subject many more restrictions than I am. My experience has been that college is almost universally of a 'liberal' bent though that term is a bit broad, and there is plenty of independent evidence to this as well. Sociology degrees are for people who can't read, learn, and form opinions & explanations for human behavior themselves (or more realistically, want to get trashed three times a week instead of pulling all nighters for an engineering assignment, then graduate to an entry-level clerical job). Not sure what any of that has to do with my alleged neglecting of facts though, or where my arguments are unsound or unsupported by your own proferred evidence.

    TCB
     
  20. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

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    The World and American history of gun control has been about people control. Many ethenic and religious minorities support gun control as they fear an armed majority.
    The elite upper class fears all arms not owned by the police. An armed middle class pays the most taxes. They own the most firearms all gun control laws are directed at this groupe. Yes, they are the ones most likely to refuse the growing and controlling governments. :cuss:
     
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  21. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    If that were true, why the gated communities, why the license/registration/permit/tax fee schedules so prohibitively expensive, why the armed guards at "truly" important places/persons, why a national military at all if self defense is not seen as a core human function? You'll rarely if ever find an independent person (meaning not an advocate paycheck-bound to stick to a position no matter how embarrassing) who will claim what you've asserted, that anti-gun people do not value the importance of self-defense; far more common is the badly conflicted position that bats, fists, or non-lethal weapons should be used instead* (or ironically enough, weapons that are already illegal in many places). It is *governments* who frequently blast this position in places where gun rights have been stifled, however.

    You do make a good point, of course, that if someone is steadily fastened to a post in Aristotle's Cave and do not possess even the most basic understanding about the nature and use of violent force or political power, that they are unreachable. No kidding.

    TCB

    *and what is it that makes bats, fists, or such things more acceptable in these peoples' eyes? Is it that they are more practical, or less barbaric in their task than a handgun? Hell no, there's probably nothing more horrible than forcibly stopping a determined attacker with a blunt object, or worse, your own fists (and that's assuming the very unlikely outcome that you'd come out ahead). It's because they are actually familiar with them, and are therefore more comfortable with them; they can imagine using a bat to ward off an attacker, therefore the bat appreciates in value from their perspective. If you can only imagine being at the point of a gun, this is not possible.
     
  22. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "The World and American history of gun control has been about people control. Many ethenic and religious minorities support gun control as they fear an armed majority."
    "IMHO gun control isn't motivated by racism but rather the media, which uses racism to spin it"
    Not just the media, necessarily, and there's also the angle that minorities wish to maintain a non-threatening image so as to avoid the ire of a hostile majority (verrrry big aspect of old Jim Crow culture). But racism is merely a tool to drum up support for the interests of the policy-makers, that's for certain.
     
  23. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    Barnbwt,

    There is no difference in your goals and mine. I don't believe government is benevolent either. What I do believe is that our ability to fight gun control comes down to being more effective in marketing our POV to the general public, because it has been pretty miserable so far.

    That includes better understanding our opponents. The tendency for people on our side to rant about motivations that no one else believes in does not make us smarter, convert the undecided or provide an avenue of action. In fact, it is just a distraction from the business of fighting gun control.

    Let's remove the foil hats.
     
  24. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Dog Soldier said: "An armed middle class pays the most taxes. They own the most firearms all gun control laws are directed at this groupe. Yes, they are the ones most likely to refuse the growing and controlling governments"

    Yeah, too bad they don't vote, though.
     
  25. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Is the PRIMARY motivation of the gun control lobby racism?

    Yes, they hate the whole human race, themselves included.
     
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