Is the United States doomed... or should it be?

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jnojr

jnojr

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Look at the extreme, and growing, polarization between red states vs. blue. Just as they have no right to force us to accept Socialism, "universal health care", paying for millions of illegal aliens and welfare bums, etc; we have no right to tell them that they must become conservative and support our ideals.

We should split. Let the liberals form their Socialist Utopia, and let conservatives/libertarians create a society with minimal government. Heck, the two nations could still have certain connections, like one military to defend the interests of both. But, as great as the United States was, and still is in many ways, it isn't some sacred entity that must exist for all time.

Put another way, if there's to be one US, than I have to insist that it be run the way I want and that everyone who doesn't agree with me must just put up with that. Of course, they have the same idea... we must be a "progressive" nation, and I just have to give up my silly, antiquated beliefs in non-rights like the ownership of arms, privacy, self-defense, or the silly notion that my wages are mine to do with as I must. The two sets of beliefs are simply incompatible and drifting further apart every day.
 
I agree.

But how do you put something like that forward?

It staggers the brain just to think of it. Not to mention, there are a fair amount of lefty's in each state and illegals that will try to stop it... They want a nanny state.

I have thought that each state needs to pass a "cultural constitution" that sets down some of the things the believe and that "cultural constitution" is unchangeable. If people do not like it, move somewhere else or live with it.

Example - Texas believe in the right to keep and bear arms. We believe that a man shouldn't steal your "horse". We believe that some folks need killin'... et cetera, et cetera.

So those things will not change no matter if the state is full of hippies. Then if the hippies do not like it, they can move to California.

The point is the that the Fed is taking on to much. A lot of what they are doing are really states rights issues and that is where people have the controls. I cannot un-elect Fienstien, as I live in Texas, but CA can be CA and TX can be TX this way and ALMOST everyone is happy. That is my logic.
 
I was talking about something like this the other day... I was lamenting that there was no 'haven' for people like us, because federal law trumps all and unfortunately it's federal laws I mostly have a problem with.

But remember, there was once a split from people who thought that the Fed should mind it's own business. They lost.

They called it the Civil War.
 
Won't happen.

It's not as polarilized as you think. I live in a red state but counting
numbers. its like 40% Republican, 39% Democrats and 20% Inpedendents
and other parties(LIbertarians, Greens etc). And being mostly rural,
about 80% own guns. So be careful when you talk, so conservative,
the other guy may own a gun but the chances are He is not republican.
In the last election, A law was proposed to outlaw all abortion, and guess
what, it lost! So abortion is still very much legal. I actually think that
the independents are gaining grounds here and may decide most election,
since they can take any sides of the issues/
 
the NH experiment....

I think the closest thing to achieving what your talking about is to get a bunch (like a million) like minded individuals to all move into a very lightly populated state with coastline.....

Then secede from Union and declare independance.

Kind of what the Libertarians have attempted in NH......

Unfortunately none of what I've seen from that group has made a positive impression on me.
 
Don't panic yet. While a leftist majority in Congress may seem like a shock, there has never been a time when everyone agreed on politics. The pendulum swings and when it makes an extreme swing one direction, it will rebound in the other. If there really was a logical geographical dividing line between the "red" and "blue" thinking people, we might have a huge problem. But there are plently of conservatives in blue states and plenty of liberals in the red ones, so who would move where?

Ultimately, we are Americans and the tougher things get, the more we pull together. I'm not crazy about the bunch that just got elected, but either they will rise to the occasion, or meet the same fate as those they replaced.
 
I think it's much the same as it's always been in a manner of speaking... Think about it like this...
Natives using stone tools, no wheels, no horses. Here comes the Europeans, ruining everything, taking things over, speaking different languages. Place is going downhill fast.
Then, English, Dutch, French, Spanish, a few Russians out west, maybe some Asian, don't forget the natives. Each trying to lay claim to theirs with their own cultural customs, warfare kinda common, law being what you make it.
Later, British Colonists, north and south some industrial some agricultural, add slavery to the mix along with the anti-slavery crowd, then BOOM... REVOLUTION and Independence with some alliance of the North and South to kick out the King, some new-fangled experiment in government... a few caused it to happen. The majority... were affected by the actions of that few. Some in a good fashion. Some not as good, some left to head north, some headed out west.
Excursion into Mexican politics...
Later the whole experiment erupted into states (who were heavily tariffed and also had slave driven agriculture) rights vs. federal united power and boy... talk about problems. Before, during and after. Internal civil warfare.
Tell the natives one thing... do another. Sound familar? Wipe out their food source. Oops. Deal with it.
War with Spain. Media driven?
Involvement in European war.
Income taxes.
Prohibition
Depression
Social reform (thank you FDR) where the gov't grew 500X faster than the population...
Second European war coupled with Asian war. Internment of AMERICAN CITIZENS. Oops. Deal with it.
Cold War.
Israel into the mix. A lot of American Jews who were not in Europe (thank g-d for their sake) helped politicize that venture. Problems in the mid-east now. Who's side you on? (Do we gotta pick a side?)
Civil Rights. Riots. Police hosing/beating down AMERICAN CITIZENS.
Southeast Asian wargames. Riots. Kent State.
Watergate. (You mean our government LIES to us?)

I left out a bunch didn't I?

While it all sounds negative, think of all the positive things that have occured in the same time span on the same continent by the same driven people. What drives them? Freedom? A dream? A chance to be left alone to raise a family. To worship (or not) who and how they want?

Where else you gonna get all that and have a good time as well?

Can we go back to our original republic where only white, land-owning males over 21 could vote? Should we?

Or should we watch and moderate our nation's evolution into whatever it becomes in our lifetime? Trying to keep working to pay our bills and raise our families and not have too heavy a governmental levy in our day to day?

I dunno.
 
When people STOP complaining... that's when we're well and truly F'ed. As long as their is a healthy, spirirted and vocal argument for every position... I think we're in a good place. Gun rights are always in a bad place, but overall, it's not that bad.
 
It'll Never Happen.

The Blue states cannot exist without the Red states.

Truth be told, Red or Blue, not one of the states is in 100% accord with the Constitution. It's just that some(Blue) are worse than others(Red).

The disease afflicting our nation is liberalism. If we in this nation stuck with the Constitution, we'd be colonizing Mars by now. All the wealth spent supporting Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and all the other loaves of bread tossed to the mob, accomplished only one thing: The job security of those tossing out loaves of bread that we baked for them.

Look where everyone seems to want to compromise. It's to the left of the Constitution. Not on the Constitution, not to the right of the Constitution, but to the left of the Constitution, where every take-from-the-rich-and-give-to-the-lazy program for big government comes from. If you want an effective revolution to obtain small government, personal wealth, and staggering growth and advancement, throw every liberal out of government. The Constitution isn't about strong government, it's about a strong us - we the people.

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
Some of you have missed my point.

Yes, there have always been arguments between liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, etc. But they used to just disagree. They accepted that "the other guy" was earnest and well-meaning, just wrong. Today, everything is Rethuglicans this and Democrats that. "The other guy" is a homicidal maniac bent on destroying everything that's good and right and true. I see two alternatives... a peaceful, organized secession (I know, not going to happen), or another Civil War.

How much farther can we let the Socialists go, stripping away our rights? How much further can they let us go, insisting on determining our own future and allocating the resources of our own labor? Those who say that the Blue states cannot exist (as they are, and as they'd wish to be) without the Red states are absolutely right. But do we cut the ties and our losses, or do we allow Socialism to consume us?

Even there, I can see that polarization in myself, but damnit, I cannot accept leftism. I cannot afford to feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for millions of starving illegal aliens. I have quite enough on my plate providing for myself, and not enough providing for my own future so I don't become one of the grasping hands needing and demanding more, more, more. Socialism could, very literally, kill me... I cannot be one of millions standing in line for a government check after the cupboards have already run bare. I intend to die with a full stomach and of a cause that wasn't forseeable or preventable, or is at least the result of choices I make.
 
I think the closest thing to achieving what your talking about is to get a bunch (like a million) like minded individuals to all move into a very lightly populated state with coastline.....

Then secede from Union and declare independance.

Kind of what the Libertarians have attempted in NH......
Click to expand...

And when that happens I shall immigrate to New Hampshire. Will I be an illegal alien or will they have a functional imigration system?
 
I suggest you look at the number of persons who voted Dem and the number of people that voted Repub in each county. You will find out that we are actually really purple.
 
This is misleading though as the real rift is between inner city metrosexual types that want a socialist police state to protect them from the inner city criminals mainly made up of 'minorities' that are part of a subculture (hip hop oriented etc)..and those of a suburban or rural background that live more traditional conservative lifestyles and are intolerant of the subcultures that create the reduction in morals. The less crowded rural people also have room to 'play' and grow up enjoying outdoors that give one more of an appreciation for being tough and self reliant yet responsible. While the city element is always under the watchful eye of the system, yet lacks the traditional morals that encourage people to police themselves from within instead of requiring others to police them.

Sadly we will become more socialist and lose more rights over time as a larger and larger % of the american population live in large metropolis cities.
The places you see as blue are mainly the places where the majority of the population lives in such large metropolis areas riddled with inner city criminals and the metrosexual influance holding people they scare.
 
Noted the TIME magazine cover today (November 20, 2006) "Why the center is the new place to be".

And Business Week (same date) "What the Election will not change ... Global forces have taken control of the economy ... And government, regardless of party, will have less influence than ever".

All this did not come about by accident, and these cover titles and articles are simply spelling out at what point we are at in a longstanding geo-political agenda will has been supported, defended and railroaded through by a nucleus in both "parties", who represent the interests of the ruling oligarchy. I have been watching it progressively directed for a few decades.

In the second title article, Mr. Mandel tells us that next year, 2007, the spending on imported goods and services will surpass that received by the Federal gov in revenue. 2008? '09? 2015? It is not difficult to see what has been done - not just "happened" - but orchestrated and run through regardless of "party".

In order to change anything, the hold the ruling oligarchy has on elections needs to be broken.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1558293,00.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_47/b4010001.htm

-------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I've been thinking much along the same lines recently.

Meaning that there seems to be a growing rift and/or polarization within the United States. I don't have any REAL answers to the problem, but I think its is REAL, and its getting worse.

All I can offer up is some radical changes to the electoral system, a return to a strict "constitutional" government, and a strict adherence to the original basis for our goverment, including the constitution.
 
This sounds like more sour grapes from a "conservative" who still can not get over the election. I guess you now realize that America is not as conservative as you thought, nor willing to through away our freedoms because some corrupt politicans want us too. Please quit wining. All I can add to help is keep a stiff upper lip, and fight for what you believe is right.


Note to all: can we please stop using this stuiped color codeing. Its Democrats and Republicans. Not red and blue.
 
1. How is stating that the educational system is largely liberal whining?

2. Red and Blue work better than Republicrat and Demican. As you may have noticed, their are left leaning Republicrats and right leaning Demicans.
 
I see two alternatives... a peaceful, organized secession (I know, not going to happen), or another Civil War.
Click to expand...

I've thought similar things, but can't foresee how it could actually unfold. My first scenario was post the impending (20 year) economic collapse of the federal govt. I imagined the country dividing into 5 or 6 state "clusters" -- NE, S, SW, Mid-W, NW -- and forming an economic coalition like the European Union for a common currency etc., but maintaining individual laws. I can see it happening as a result of a catastrophic failure of government, but I doubt very much that it could result from an organized premeditated plan (i.e. secession).

As a reference: being a recent transplant to Oregon, I can't imagine even just Oregon becoming "single minded" politically. 3/4 of our population are in less than 1/4 of our geography, and that population is very different politically than the rest of the state.

So the bottom line is that if we had a civil war, after millions of lives were lost one side would "win" and they would inevitably be a "ruling" party, but we'd still have all of the same basic disagreements we have now. Even if the 'side' that won the war divided the country, agreement on the division would be nearly impossible.
 
cbsbyte said:
This sounds like more sour grapes from a "conservative" who still can not get over the election. I guess you now realize that America is not as conservative as you thought, nor willing to through away our freedoms because some corrupt politicans want us too. Please quit wining. All I can add to help is keep a stiff upper lip, and fight for what you believe is right.
Click to expand...

Well, you know after listening to the demos whining like stuck pigs over the 2000 and 2004 elections, I guess we feel a need to play "catch-up."
 
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