Salmoneye
Member
And you were correct...
Is the USA a mini Somalia?
- Thread starter Highgate
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And you were correct...
armoredman
Member
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Gentlemen,
I suggest we not post further. The point has been made several times in eloquent fashion. Time for me and the thread to go nighty-night.
I suggest we not post further. The point has been made several times in eloquent fashion. Time for me and the thread to go nighty-night.
Cesiumsponge
Member
While firearms, for all practical purposes, banned in the UK, a large volume of violent crime still exists and blamed on "anti-social" groups like hooligans, chavs, and NEETs who are supposedly responsible for terrorizing, assaulting, and murdering citizens with knives and blunt weapons.
As a result, the UK has enacted increasingly stricter knife and bladed weapon legislation. I've seen anti-knife campaigns and knife-turn in programs, doctors campaigning for safety knives and claiming there is no practical purpose of large chef knives. The irony is all this legislation has failed in curbing crime which results in increasingly stricter laws. All those CCTV cameras and a vanishingly small percentage of them deter or solve crimes. I also have friends in Leicester and Redditch so it's not an American making fanciful, baseless assumptions.
What happened to firearms in the UK is happening to knives now...except sharp pointy things are even harder to banish from existence because we've been making them out of glass and metal since the beginning of time.
As a result, the UK has enacted increasingly stricter knife and bladed weapon legislation. I've seen anti-knife campaigns and knife-turn in programs, doctors campaigning for safety knives and claiming there is no practical purpose of large chef knives. The irony is all this legislation has failed in curbing crime which results in increasingly stricter laws. All those CCTV cameras and a vanishingly small percentage of them deter or solve crimes. I also have friends in Leicester and Redditch so it's not an American making fanciful, baseless assumptions.
What happened to firearms in the UK is happening to knives now...except sharp pointy things are even harder to banish from existence because we've been making them out of glass and metal since the beginning of time.
Yes. America is abound with ethnic cleansing raging firefights raging down every street. We sectioned off New York and turned it into a prison where only the most hardened of criminals and political dissidents are interred. Thus far, none have escaped...
But seriously, perhaps some of the confusion stems from the right to bear arms as opposed to the daily need to bear arms. Like car insurance. It's always with you whether you need it today or not. You'll likely not, but you might. So why not have it just in case?
I base my views on firearms on the advice of a British man,
"Be Prepared"- Lord Robert Baden-Powell founder of the Boy Scout movement.
Notice that doesn't say what to be prepared for. I'm prepared for a fun day at the range, I'm prepared to hunt for my food, I'm prepared to protect my chickens from a fox, and I'm prepared to protect myself and my family from anyone wishing to do us harm. As such I want to be prepared as possible, I have many different guns for collector value and for different purposes, I stock supplies of ammo so I can go to the range for a fun day if I want or god forbid for the day i need all of that ammo for something much worse. On the matter of bullet lethality, I want to be as prepared as possible and that involves using the best tool for the job.
I think what you missed is that here I have a right to own a gun, for all of those purposes and more, a right not given to me by my country, but a right protected by my constitution, and since I have that right I choose to enjoy it, and make the most of it.
On the issue of the "weirdos" there is checking here too, but no amount of background checks will stop someone intent on committing a violent act from doing it, they'll just find another way, look at the rise in the rate of knife violence and the subsequent knife laws being put into place in your country, armed violence isn't stopped when guns become unavailable, the violent just pick another arm.
"Be Prepared"- Lord Robert Baden-Powell founder of the Boy Scout movement.
Notice that doesn't say what to be prepared for. I'm prepared for a fun day at the range, I'm prepared to hunt for my food, I'm prepared to protect my chickens from a fox, and I'm prepared to protect myself and my family from anyone wishing to do us harm. As such I want to be prepared as possible, I have many different guns for collector value and for different purposes, I stock supplies of ammo so I can go to the range for a fun day if I want or god forbid for the day i need all of that ammo for something much worse. On the matter of bullet lethality, I want to be as prepared as possible and that involves using the best tool for the job.
I think what you missed is that here I have a right to own a gun, for all of those purposes and more, a right not given to me by my country, but a right protected by my constitution, and since I have that right I choose to enjoy it, and make the most of it.
On the issue of the "weirdos" there is checking here too, but no amount of background checks will stop someone intent on committing a violent act from doing it, they'll just find another way, look at the rise in the rate of knife violence and the subsequent knife laws being put into place in your country, armed violence isn't stopped when guns become unavailable, the violent just pick another arm.
Most of the guns are owned by law abiding citizens who do not commit crimes or shoot people. Simple as that.
Crime? Sure, we have crime, just like any country, but it isn't the law abiding citizens doing it. Matter of fact, law abiding citizens stop crime all the time, using their legally owned guns.
All truly free people in the world are allowed arms. Criminals everywhere have guns, even where the populace is not allowed to own them, so wouldn't you want to be free, and in a country where the politicians trust you to own firearms to protect yourself?
macadore
Member
Not a mini-Somalia. More like a massive Northern Ireland. Our culture is predominately Scots-Irish. We don't trust the government to take care of us. We trust our clan & kin. Not looking for a fight but aware that fights sometimes come looking you or yours.
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The-Reaver
Member
Wow. Is all I can say.
You had to ask your government....if you could defend your way of life from a fox....
I would rather live on the streets of " Somalia " than be forced to eat from the hand of government that obviously doesn't give a rats about you.
RvR
You had to ask your government....if you could defend your way of life from a fox....
I would rather live on the streets of " Somalia " than be forced to eat from the hand of government that obviously doesn't give a rats about you.
RvR
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
A brief history lesson for you then.
1776
1812
And this, from WW2, at a time when it looked as if Adolph & Co. were about to pay you all a cross-channel visit:
http://www.nraila.org/images/Sendagun.GIF
Once the war was over, care to guess what Britain's leadership did with most of the firearms your cousins across the Atlantic sent over?
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1959issues/G1259.pdf
1776
1812
And this, from WW2, at a time when it looked as if Adolph & Co. were about to pay you all a cross-channel visit:
http://www.nraila.org/images/Sendagun.GIF
Once the war was over, care to guess what Britain's leadership did with most of the firearms your cousins across the Atlantic sent over?
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1959issues/G1259.pdf
Wanderling
Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2011
- Messages
- 923
Just a few things to add...
1) The OP's opinion of the US is based on a couple short visits to a couple of urban areas. Most responders' opinions of Britain are, well, baseless. That's like me trying to compare rugby and lacross because I've seen a single photograph of each game once.
2) US has always had somewhat higher violent crime rate than Western Europe. It's been a frontier nation, after all. For about 2/3rd of country's history, the populace was armed and fighting with Indians, bandits, or each other, without much help from the central government. Plus you have wave upon wave upon wave of immigrants from all over the world, with inevitable spikes in crime rate until the first generation settled & found it's place. So violence, and self defense, was always a part of live. This helped to make weapons ownership an ingrained tradition. This also explains why the crime levels in the US will always be higher than in Switzerland, even if you completely disarm law abiding citizens. It's all about culture and mentality. But Somalia, or even Russia, it's not.
3) Most of the crime in the US happens in inner city ghettos (where most guns are obtained illegally anyway). Detroit is a very violent and dangerous city, yet the suburbs (where I live and work) are pretty safe. It's like two different worlds.
4) I grew up in the USSR where gun ownership was pretty impossible. It was only a relatively safe place while the central gov't was strong. As there was more freedom in the late 80s the levels of violence skyrocketed, even though the gun ownership was and still is prohibited. Never seemed to stop the criminals. I feel much safer walking around in a typical middle class US neighborhood than I was back there.
5) I hate to disappoint the "armed citizenry" advocates, but a well trained army will always win over a ragtag militia, no matter how many guns the militia has. You can buy as many AKs as you want, you're still not going to be even on the level of Iraq Republican Guard, and they were defeated rather easily. The defense against overreaching government is not in accumulating weapons to shoot at army with but in winning the minds and hearts of the army.
1) The OP's opinion of the US is based on a couple short visits to a couple of urban areas. Most responders' opinions of Britain are, well, baseless. That's like me trying to compare rugby and lacross because I've seen a single photograph of each game once.
2) US has always had somewhat higher violent crime rate than Western Europe. It's been a frontier nation, after all. For about 2/3rd of country's history, the populace was armed and fighting with Indians, bandits, or each other, without much help from the central government. Plus you have wave upon wave upon wave of immigrants from all over the world, with inevitable spikes in crime rate until the first generation settled & found it's place. So violence, and self defense, was always a part of live. This helped to make weapons ownership an ingrained tradition. This also explains why the crime levels in the US will always be higher than in Switzerland, even if you completely disarm law abiding citizens. It's all about culture and mentality. But Somalia, or even Russia, it's not.
3) Most of the crime in the US happens in inner city ghettos (where most guns are obtained illegally anyway). Detroit is a very violent and dangerous city, yet the suburbs (where I live and work) are pretty safe. It's like two different worlds.
4) I grew up in the USSR where gun ownership was pretty impossible. It was only a relatively safe place while the central gov't was strong. As there was more freedom in the late 80s the levels of violence skyrocketed, even though the gun ownership was and still is prohibited. Never seemed to stop the criminals. I feel much safer walking around in a typical middle class US neighborhood than I was back there.
5) I hate to disappoint the "armed citizenry" advocates, but a well trained army will always win over a ragtag militia, no matter how many guns the militia has. You can buy as many AKs as you want, you're still not going to be even on the level of Iraq Republican Guard, and they were defeated rather easily. The defense against overreaching government is not in accumulating weapons to shoot at army with but in winning the minds and hearts of the army.
ApacheCoTodd
member
I'll tell ya Hoss, I've been to Denver, Boston, Mogadishu and Kismaayo as well as the East Side of London, Manchester, Liverpool and Belfast. I'd say referring to America as a "mini" anything let alone Somalia - even in the spineless form of a supposed question - smacks of a form of envy and lack of understanding that certainly can't be corrected or effectively addressed on an internet forum.
Additionally, my wife is a former Bayswater/Earl's Court gal and is now a CCWing US citizen who has never been misfortunate nor obtuse enough to confuse this great nation with Somalia.
Additionally, my wife is a former Bayswater/Earl's Court gal and is now a CCWing US citizen who has never been misfortunate nor obtuse enough to confuse this great nation with Somalia.
mljdeckard
Member
Wanderling, is that why the Soviets gave up in Afghanistan?
Ringolevio
Member
Reading the responses on this thread has made me proud to be a member of this community.
I was already proud to be an American citizen freely exercising the God-given right to self-defense which the 2nd Amendment pledges to protect.
Some of us even believe that it is our duty and responsibility as American citizens to keep and bear arms and to be competent in their use.
Chindo18Z:
When speaking to our "cousins from across the pond" we might need to point out that we Colonials say pissed as short for "pissed off", meaning "upset"; otherwise Limeys might think we Yanks were talking about being drunk.
I was already proud to be an American citizen freely exercising the God-given right to self-defense which the 2nd Amendment pledges to protect.
Some of us even believe that it is our duty and responsibility as American citizens to keep and bear arms and to be competent in their use.
Chindo18Z:
When speaking to our "cousins from across the pond" we might need to point out that we Colonials say pissed as short for "pissed off", meaning "upset"; otherwise Limeys might think we Yanks were talking about being drunk.
Tommygunn
Member
Wanderling said:
mljdeckard said:
In the second amendment one finds the term "a well-regulated militia." The term "well regulated" is the antithesis of Wanderling's derogatory term "ragtag militia," although Wanderling is not without his point.
During the Revolutionary War the militia was all-too-often "ragtag." In fact even Washington's Continental Army had a problem with recruits who were drunk, unarmed, undisciplined, and so forth.
The training provided by Hessian (German) regulars greatly helped form up the new Continental army and made a good difference.
Militias proved somewhat useful as auxiliaries. I can't recall the name of the engagement right now, but one well known British commander along with an army and a supply train making way down the Hudson River Valley in New York was so severely pestered and roused by a "ragtag" militia (I use the term with slight tongue-in-cheek here) that by the time they'd gotten to their destination, they were either all dead, or POWs.
The point is the militia were intended as a sort of "first responder" used to engage an enemy until the regular army arrived.
No "ragtag militia" is going to be all that much good, but a "well-regulated" one can make a huge difference.
[/thread drift]
MachIVshooter
Member
No.
We have a higher murder rate (about 3.5 times), but overall violent crime is much higher in the UK and Europe.
This web site shows total crime:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
UK has a little more than half the total crime as compared to the USA, but with 1/5th the population (62m vs. 313m).
Violent crime per 100k is 400-500 per year in the USA; It is over 2,000 in GB. Incidentally, overall violent crime is also higher in other European countries than it is here.
So, while you're less likely to be murdered in the UK than the USA, you're about 5 times as likely to be a victim of violent crime (rape, assault, kidnapping, etc.) in the UK
blarby
Member
As has been illustrated, we are not Somalia !
Although you'd think with some of the defenses offered in contradiction, when read carefully, that we just might be a little closer than we'd like to be sometimes
I have a few questions along the lines of my favorite areas of THR that pertain to your gun ownership :
1. What kind of shotgun do you keep to dissuade Mr. Fox from the henhouse ?
2. What kind of shells do you keep, and how many are you permitted ?
3. ( if the answer to #1 permits it) Would you be allowed to obtain a rifled barrel for use on your firearm, should the need or occasion arise ?
4. Would you be allowed to load your own ammunition where you reside, and if so, would you be interested in doing so ?
5. What is the cost of a box of your favorite shells, and where and how frequently do you practice shooting ?
Thanks for allowing the queries,
-b
Although you'd think with some of the defenses offered in contradiction, when read carefully, that we just might be a little closer than we'd like to be sometimes
I have a few questions along the lines of my favorite areas of THR that pertain to your gun ownership :
1. What kind of shotgun do you keep to dissuade Mr. Fox from the henhouse ?
2. What kind of shells do you keep, and how many are you permitted ?
3. ( if the answer to #1 permits it) Would you be allowed to obtain a rifled barrel for use on your firearm, should the need or occasion arise ?
4. Would you be allowed to load your own ammunition where you reside, and if so, would you be interested in doing so ?
5. What is the cost of a box of your favorite shells, and where and how frequently do you practice shooting ?
Thanks for allowing the queries,
-b
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Hyperbole that extreme is unlikely to get a civil response yet the members here have done so, granted, some better than others. Look to those and consider that expecting a firearms enthusiast website where most of the members live in a country where firearms ownership is a right that is commonly utilized for recreation, sport and, yes, self defense will show the broad range of firearms owners that may not exist in many other countries.
Even the idea of shooting as a noble sport, as it is in the E.U. and U.K., is foreign here in the U.S. where it is a commoners' activity. The most average person may have firearms for sport or recreation or hunting to put meat in the freezer. That changes the very nature of the assumptions and impressions of firearms owners and ownership when viewed from the outside where, for the most part, the priviliged have the privilige of shooting as an activity. The threads on the price of firearms and accessories here compared to Europe and the United Kingdom refelct this in by the prices of the same firearms produced in the E.U. are two to three times the price of them in the U.S.
Lastly, having traveled in S.W. Asia and across North America extensively (I'm on my third trip already this year away from home) the "impression" you've gotten from the farm in the U.K. looking through the lense of this website is decidedly different than the reality of Samalia. Other members that actually served in Somalia can give a more detailed account of the real experience compared to the peacable U.S., but for me the rates of violence that I've seen first hand abroad and here are relatively low in the U.S. even where the population is large.
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