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Is there a gun that shoots like 1911?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by DefiantDad, Jul 16, 2012.

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  1. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    I am not sure what I am getting into by asking this question but I have to ask it because I have no idea how to even search for it on Google (tried but nothing; didn't know the words to type anyway).

    Is there a specific angle or something to the 1911 between the bore line and the grip, that is somewhat unique to the 1911? i.e., do guns vary this angle?

    If so, then is there another gun that replicates the 1911 angle?

    What I am trying to ask is, is there another gun that shoots the same as the 1911, without being a 1911?
     
  2. WNC Seabee

    WNC Seabee Member

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    I haven't measured anything, but the Springfield XD feels much the same to me. It is a double stack though.
     
  3. Pistol Ranch

    Pistol Ranch Member

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    A Google search found that the grip angle on a 1911 is BETWEEN 108 and 110 degrees. (109 Degrees??) Many handguns vary this angle.
    There is some discussion that the grip angle of the 1911 is bad because when held with the forearm extended, the 1911 points at the ground.
    The same could be said for a number of other handguns..IMO the grip angle is a matter of preference, I personally favor the Sig P220's grip and reliability.

    P.R.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  4. hAkron

    hAkron Member

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  5. stoney1666

    stoney1666 Member

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    CZ 40B samd angle
     
  6. Frankl03

    Frankl03 Member

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    You may find some guns that replicate the 1911 grip angle. 1911 has a trigger pull that I doubt you will find in another gun.

    Also the weight and feel of a 1911 is different from most other firearms. of course 1911s come in a number of different sizes and weights.
     
  7. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

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    If you are talking for training, then the Ruger 22/45 will feel somewhat similar. Same grip angle and thickness

    Why do you ask? Do you like the way they shoot but not the way they look? (I can't imagine anyone NOT liking the way they look, but to each his own)

    If you like the platform, but prefer not to shoot .45, there are plenty of 9mm 1911 options.
     
  8. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

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    So I may have answered my own question because I saw your other thread about fixed sights point of aim. You wrote:

    You also mentioned you have a Glock 19 and Beretta 92. The Glock uses a striker and a "glock-action" type trigger. Basically the striker is like 80% cocked and by pulling the trigger you cock it the rest of the way and then it releases. It can be fired quite accurately once you practice. The Beretta is double action (da/sa) and I assume you shot it in SA most of the time. Although I like the trigger pull in SA on the Beretta 92 it does not quite compare to a quality 1911 IMO, so that could explain why you had such good success with the 1911 right away. A 1911 will likely have a lighter and crisper trigger. Also the sights on the 1911 may have been a bit more precise, whereas the Glock and Beretta both have sights more for combat.

    It sounds like you had a great experience with a 1911 but if you don't want to buy one then your best bet is to just practice more with the guns you do have. Both the Glock and Beretta but especially the Beretta are known to be quite accurate, you just need to practice. Also if you want to lighten the DA pull on the Beretta by a lot (and slightly lighten the SA pull) you can do the D-spring installation and get a little closer to the 1911 feel.
     
  9. Hk Dan

    Hk Dan Member

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    HK USP45 is comparable (though when new the trigger is snarky). The newer HK45 is even better.
     
  10. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    The grip geometry is a very personal thing, if the 1911 angle/thickness/size works in your hand, then go with it.

    The XD line of pistols sort of replicates the angle, it works for me but not everyone.
    Glock and Beretta are very much NOT 1911-like in grip angle, some people can shoot them equally well or better (not me!)
    For a cheaper ammo alternative, Rock Island Armory (AKA Armscor) makes 1911s in 9x19 and even a pretty good one in .22lr now ... they share the trigger mechanics and grip shape/angle with the 1911 because they're built on minimally modified 1911 frames.
    Ruger makes the 22/45, which sort of replicates the 1911 grip and controls, personally I like the traditional Ruger grip angle better.
    The CZ RAMI looks fairly similar, as do some H&K pistols, but not many of those are going to save you much money
    The Colt pony/pocketlite/mustang are vaguely 1911-like in smaller size
    The SIG P238/938 are based on the Colt mustang, and are quite 1911 like
    Springfield makes their EMP, which is a 1911-based design built around the shorter cartridge length of .40s&w/9x19mm/.45gap/etc

    This would be easier if I knew what you wanted to DO with a non-1911 1911-like gun ... and:
    "I wanna do-it-all gun that has light recoil, eats cheap ammo, isn't expensive, is easy to clean, has alotta knockdown power, comes with nightsights and a tactical rail, etc etc"
    ... doesn't help.
     
  11. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    I know it's a horrible picture but illustrates the similarity between the M&P line from S&W and their rendition of the 1911.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    Thanks guys; as always you folks are awesome with your insights. This 1911 thing has me really puzzled because, as holdencm9 saw, it is a spin-off question from a recent gun range experience of mine, where I shot a 1911 essentially for the first time, and was doing so much better than with my own guns (9mms) that I am still a bit shocked that there would be any difference, and even that much of a difference. So I am trying to narrow down what were the mystery factors so that I can have a clearer idea what skills to pay attention to (primarily) and way secondarily possibly consider a 1911 (or such).

    Back to the 1911, I had no idea there was that much variety in weight. I had SOME idea that 1911s were highly customized with many variants, but prior to this experience I had thought it was mostly furniture, or trigger jobs, etc. which should not affect overall weight that much. Anyway, the 1911 I picked up at the range that day seemed way lighter than "custom 1911s" that LGSs have been showing me over the years. All of those felt way thicker and heavier (as thick and heavy as my Beretta 92) but I really liked the overall ergonomics of the 1911 I shot at the range.

    .45 is in itself not necessarily a problem for me; it's just that I invested so much already in 9mm, I really do not want to have to "go there" and think about putting dollars towards a .45 platform.

    I have no idea if I would be so lucky as to be able to rent a 1911 in 9mm so I can narrow down the ergonomics even further. Probably not.

    What is for sure is that I am going back soon to rent the 1911 and do 100 rounds and see if I was just lucky that day or there really is something about that 1911 that somehow helps my accuracy.
     
  13. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    You forgot "doesn't jam" and "keeps its resale value" hahaha :)

    Oh, BTW, can I ask, if I *do* get a 1911 (gosh I really do not want to go there! :-D) are there barrel kits that can turn it into a 9mm shooter, so I can turn it back to its original .45, without having to buy TWO guns (9mm and .45). I think I have seen a lot of 22LR kits for 1911 so I assume there must be 9mm "conversion" kits? Or are those gimmicky and not reliable?
     
  14. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    Interesting. Maybe I will see if the range can rent me that gun. I have shot a Ruger 22 (I think the Mark 2 or Mark 3) so I am not sure if the Mark 2/Mark 3 has the same grip angle (now that you guys told me it is called the "grip angle").

    EDIT: Actually probably I won't rent it. The 22LR is so much more different than 9mm/.45 that I am not sure it will help my training. I have shot 22LR before and it was easy to handle. So it must be the recoil (but it is weird since the .45 should recoil at least a little more than the 9mm and yet I shot the .45 better).
     
  15. shaggy430

    shaggy430 Member

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    If you want something that has a similar look and feel of a 1911, in my opinion a Browning Hi-Power is pretty close.
     
  16. Roadking Rider

    Roadking Rider Member

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    Always felt that my CZ75B felt kind of 1911 ish. The 75 b is one darned fine pistol.
     
  17. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    Upon further thought, I think you are right, as I recall the 1911 trigger breaking crisper than my Beretta. I will pay more attention to the trigger when I try the 1911 again (probably the same exact gun, since they only have one 1911 for rental).
     
  18. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    Anything is possible, with enough money/time/effort

    But for practical purposes, no

    the .22lr conversion kits use their own ejector, barrel and slide with breechface and extractor ... they can do that because there is room for all that in the slide of an oversized .22lr pistol
    A 9x19 1911 will need a specialized slide with breechface and extractor, plus a specialized ejector in the frame

    Picture of a XT22 1911 from Rock Island Armory:
    [​IMG]
    You can see the hook behind the barrel, that's the .22lr ejector. That .22 happens to be built on a .45acp frame, the vestigial .45acp ejector is pinned to the frame in the normal spot. A 9mm (or .38super) 1911 would need the slide cut to ride over an oddball ejector that rode somewhere in between those two points, a 9mm casing would rattle around on the breechface and would miss the .45 ejector

    Luckily, once you have the gear for one 1911 pistol, you can just keep buying more of them endlessly - but at least you don't need new holsters!
     
  19. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Heavy, yes. Thick? Unless you're talking about a 2011 or some other double-stack mutation of a 1911, they are one of the thinnest autoloaders out there. The grip is somewhat long front to back, but thick? Of course, if the manufacturer sticks a picatiny rail on the bottom of it, that'll fatten it up.
     
  20. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Seems like my S&W 14 was very similar in angle and trigger as well - as long as I resisted mounting up some mongo target grips.
     
  21. Auto426

    Auto426 Member

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    There's more that goes into the shooting experience of a 1911 than just the angle of the grip. There's also the over balance, the shape of the grip, the specific grip panels that were on the gun, the length of the trigger, the straight back pull of the trigger, the weight of the trigger pull, the type of grip safety it had, and the type of mainspring housing it had. I'm sure that I could name a few other factors if I tried to as well.

    Simply grabbing a different gun with the same grip angle isn't going to perfectly replicate the shooting experience you had with the 1911. If you enjoyed the experience that much, than it may be time to think about adding another gun to the safe. Variety is the spice of life, and going through it with just a single caliber would would have me bored pretty quickly.
     
  22. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    ATLDave - perhaps you're right. The weight might have given me a false impression of the thickness (or maybe those particular custom 1911 had slightly thicker grips; I recall they came as a pair in a box which the LGS was showing me; being totally ignorant about the 1911 I don't remember all the features of those particular custom guns that the LGS had probably described to me at the time).
     
  23. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    Variety is indeed the spice of life but the *spice* of life could also come in the form of the Wife saying (and I can just imagine it) "So, what about all this 9mm stuff that we already paid for?!" .... So...... we shall see.....
     
  24. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    Thanks bigfatdave for the photo and explanation re: 9mm on the 1911.
     
  25. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    It's been noted earlier in this string that you've apparently had some issues with shooting differences between your 1911 and some other pistols. Perhaps this question is somewhat related to that issue.

    Here's my pre-1983 two cents worth on this matter:

    The first pistol I owned was an AMT II .22 Automag. Truely awesome pistol in that caliber...a load of fun to shoot and sweet to carry in the field. And as accurate as anything I could hope for.

    The second gun I bought was a Colt 1991A1 .45 ACP. Again, a wonderful pistol that I could shoot the centers out of targets with no problem at all. Sweet as candy.

    The third gun I bought was a Baretta 92FS. I couldn't hit <deleted> with it. There was no slop in the slide, no feed or ejection issues, no jamming. I just couldn't hit ANYTHING I was aiming at. My shots were all over the place.

    Assuming that there was nothing wrong with the weapon because it was mechanically functioning perfectly, and my shots weren't consistently high/low/left/right, I had to stop and see what might be wrong with ME...or, perhaps, what was different about this pistol that was causing this problem, since I wasn't having this issue with my other two pistols.

    The answer turned out to be the trigger. Not the fact that the first shot is double action (my other two pistols don't have this), but the fact that the Baretta trigger pivots, whereas the triggers on my other two pistols do not. They pull straight back.

    Anybody with an ounce of brains, and experience with pistols, will tell you that trigger control is extremely important in maintaining your target sight. Especially since the short distance between your front and rear sights is much shorter than that of a long-gun. Any little thing which keeps you from maintaining your target sight through a smooth trigger pull, up to the point of release, will throw your aim off. I just didn't realize that a different type of trigger would have that drastic of an effect on my shooting.

    As soon as I realized this, I started concentrating on proper trigger pull for this type of trigger while maintaining my target sight. My aim improved rapidly.

    By the nature of the beast, the angle between the grip and the barrel for most pistols will be similar...but there are enough differences between human hands to mean that the slight differences between one particular pistol's grip angle and another may make a difference to some individuals. I've read some links which talk about the 1911 having a "bad grip angle"...meaning it doesn't naturally allow you to point the weapon without abnormally adjusting your grip to compensate.

    I think this is bull...people are different, therefore grips will be different from person to person. If the gun fits your hand comfortably and the gun seems to naturally "point" at what you aim at when you extend your arm, then the grip angle for that gun is perfectly OK for you.

    In fact, these two characteristics (grip and pointability) are at the top of my list for important characteristics any person should consider when purchasing any practical firearm. If it's not a comfortable weapon to hold and you have to hold yourself in an unnatural position to shoot something, then it doesn't matter what it looks like, how well it's built, or how reliable it is...you won't feel comfortable with the weapon in your hand and therefore you won't find any joy in shooting it.

    If you are having a problem accurately shooting one particular pistol, but no problems with another, then consider what may be different about that pistol which may cause you to shoot differently.

    Often it's not that the pistol is bad or that the shooter is bad...but that the combination of the two together isn't working out for some reason.

    :):)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2012
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