Is there a gun that shoots like 1911?

[bigfatdave]

Heavy, yes. Thick? Unless you're talking about a 2011 or some other double-stack mutation of a 1911, they are one of the thinnest autoloaders out there.

this is a good point, 1911s are rather thin, and you can go even thinner by swapping out for thin grips.

D.D., If you shot a wide (left to right) one, it was a doublestack or had some kind of oddball grips on it - I run slimline alumagrips on mine, thin and tough for carry.

 

[DefiantDad]

Nah, I'm pretty sure it was a single stack. I remember feeling the magazine being thinner than the double stacks for my 9mms. This is the 1911 I shot recently, not the custom ones I was shown by the LGS.

 

[DefiantDad]

I also got alumagrips on my Beretta. They are sharp but I suppose very good against sweat, which I am not sure the trausch grips would. But this is another subject.

 

[bigfatdave]

Thanks bigfatdave for the photo and explanation re: 9mm on the 1911.

You're welcome

Variety is indeed the spice of life but the *spice* of life could also come in the form of the Wife saying (and I can just imagine it) "So, what about all this 9mm stuff that we already paid for?!" .... So...... we shall see.

Well, nobody said you had to abandon your stash of 9mm ammo in the woods, or anything.

Examples:
http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/...omatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
Officer's size 1911 in 9x19, with good sights, modern grip safety, etc
singlestack, takes shorter magazines than government and has a shorter grip as well as shorter barrel
good for carry, if RIA can make a shorty .45 work, there's no reason a shorty 9mm wouldn't, and 9mm defensive ammo is generally formulated for a shorter barrel in the first place
Takes fairly easy-to-find grips

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/...omatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
Government size 1911 in 9x19, modern features, good sights, safety lever on both sides (if you're a lefty, great ... otherwise a worthless feature as far as I'm concerned)
singlestack, full size grip, takes full size magazines
OK for carry
Takes extremely easy-to-find grips

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/...omatic+Pistol&cal=9MM&fin=&sit=&zipcode=43452
This is the fat one, doublestack government size in 9x19 AND .22tcm (a new round barely past wildcat stage)
Takes oddball magazines you can only get from RIA/Armscor
Expensive
TCM ammo only from Armscor so far
Takes oddball grips
... ... you probably don't want this one, yet

===

You don't HAVE to go to .45acp for a 1911-based pistol
There are purists out there who scoff at anything but .45acp, and to a degree, they have a point. The gun was designed around the .45acp round, and the further you deviate from that original design the harder it is to get parts or diagnose problems
BUT, 9x19 is a common enough chambering that you'll only be a little off of the mainstream path, I checked and Wilson makes magazines in government/commander or officer sizes, grips will interchange and you won't really be buying a second barrel or changing out your ejector anyway, probably.

 

[DefiantDad]

Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.

Glad you think I may have helped.

Here's the method I used to resolve my issue:

I used a stable bench and very carefully and slowly did some precision shooting with my Baretta at a short distance...about 3 or 4 yards. I braced myself in as stable and comfortable a position, using whatever means necessary to rest my gun and gun hand as still as possible.

When I did this, I was able to eliminate/minimize all the other minor factors which affect accuracy: movement of hands and arms while standing, heart beat, long distances, and so forth.

The ability to hit the target where I was aiming in a consistent fashion from such bench shooting at short ranges proved to me that the pistol was not at fault. This established the baseline performace capabilities that were possible between myself and the Baretta, if I could overcome whatever it was that was affecting my shooting.

From there, I stood up and took some slow, careful shots while standing, at the same 3 or 4 yard distance.

It was during these two stances (bench and standing) under these conditions that I discovered how important that pivoting trigger was to my shooting.

Once I realized what the underlying issue was, all I needed to do was continue practicing until this type of trigger pull was as second-nature to me as the ones on my other two pistols. With enough practice, there was little, if any noticable difference in my shooting when I transitioned from one pistol to another. I automatically fell into the right groove for whichever type of gun I was handling at the time.

LOTS of pysical factors between different pistol designs can have a significant effect on your ability to accurately shoot the pistol. As I said before, these don't necessarily mean the pistol or the shooter is at fault...merely that the differences have to be recognized and addressed.

Ever get a new cell phone or some new electronic device with a new remote control that doesn't quite work the way the one you were used to? Kinda the same kind of aggrevation, until you figure out how the new one works.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Chief - thanks for your very excellent explanation and sharing of personal experience. You probably hit the nail on the head. Yes I am trying to figure exactly what is the mystery factor with the 1911.

Deducing this further... I would imagine if I place my trigger finger LOWER down on the Beretta trigger (in SA mode) would minimize the effects of the trigger squeeze and the pivoting of the trigger (as you so aptly described). If not lower down then at least I would make a conscious decision not to allow the trigger finger to be higher than necessary and causing perhaps the exact minute (small) movement causing my shots to hit low.

One other recommendation...

You can try adjusting your finger placement up or down on the trigger if you wish. However, I would recommend that you go for a "natural" placement of your finger...pretty much in the center of the curved "cup" of the trigger, maybe slightly below center. Don't fight your natural positioning of your finger if at all possible.

And make sure the pad of your finger tip is centered on the trigger. If you only place your fingertip (close to the fingernail) on the trigger, you will tend to "push" the pistol in the direction the finger is pointing. In other words, if you're shooting with your right hand, you will tend to push the front of your pistol to the left.

If your hooking the trigger into that first joint of your trigger finger, then you well tend to "pull" the pistol in the direction of your hand. In other words, if you're shooting right handed, you'll pull the front of your pistol to the right.

Center your finger tip on the trigger in the natural, "comfortable" spot and learn how the trigger responds/feels as you shoot.

 

[DefiantDad]

Right. Thanks.

 

[DefiantDad]

Well, looks like I am out the D-Spring option, as I got the 92A1 (poly trigger)

http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto Pistols/BERETTA/92, 96, AND CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36

 

[rswartsell]

To just try to simply answer the OP, no-not in my experience.

 

[taraquian]

I had a similar experiance when I bought my Witness Match in .40, I got to the range and started hitting everything I aimed at. I would try a CZ 75 (or clone) and see what you think, I find it very similar to my 1911and I am equally accurate with it.

I have a Bersa 9 and Taurus that I would miss the ground with if not for gravity, so there is something about the Witness and 1911's

 

[Mauser lover]

If you MUST have a 9mm, a Browning High Power is pretty close, but quite a bit easier to take down for cleaning. CZs are another close one, but with the CZ and the Browning you get a double stack magazine, so it feels fatter compared to a 1911. 9mm 1911s can be had, but they are all on the same frame, so if you buy a .45 frame, you could get a 9mm upper fitted to your gun, or do it yourself. Or vice versa.

without being a 1911

Why don't you want a 1911?

Nice sig line by the way

 

[basicblur]

Is there a gun that shoots like 1911?

Shoots like a 1911 or feels like a 1911?

I'm sure folks can chime in with what feels like a 1911, but AFA what shoots like a 1911, there are a ton of 'em - you just have to do your part.

Based on your earlier thread, it sounds like trigger pull is your biggest problem?
I believe someone on the other thread mentioned a lot of folks like the 1911 because the trigger can mask a lack of experience / skill - I completely agree.
As Ayoob is fond of saying; A light trigger pull is, more than anything else, a crutch for bad trigger technique.

A bit of dry fire practice (maybe with a DA trigger?) will go a long way toward learning how to move only the trigger finger without the rest of the hand wobbling.

I also tend to go against the grain a bit (although I see some schools are finally teaching this method), but my practice is mainly based on SD. As such, I use a 'controlled slap' pulling the trigger.
Like everyone else, first time I pick up a gun I'll check out the reset, trigger pull length, stacking, yadda yadda yadda, but that's probably the last time I'll use the trigger in that manner.
If SD is one / the main reason you have a gun, when crunch time comes and your life is on the line, are you going to be squeeeezing the trigger, releasing only to the reset point, etc? Chances are, you're going to be dumping rounds down range as fast as you can pull the trigger.
Couple that with two physiological changes that occur when you're hit with the adrenaline dump of a high stress situation - loss of fine motor skills, and greater than normal strength. How you think that combo is going to affect your trigger technique if you've practice squeeeeezing the trigger, etc?

I also go against 'conventional wisdom' and don't look at the front sight, but focus on the target. Again, it's human nature when presented with a threat to focus on the threat, so why fight human nature / physiology and learn an unnatural technique?
BTW - maybe it's my eyes or ?, but I am as accurate focusing on the target (maybe more so) than I am focusing on the front sight.

I see flames a-comin'!

 

[9mmepiphany]

BTW - maybe it's my eyes or ?, but I am as accurate focusing on the target (maybe more so) than I am focusing on the front sight.

I see flames a-comin'!

No flames, but I think that for that statement to have a qualitative value, we would have to know how accurate that is, at what distance and how quickly you are shooting.

To offer a comparison, I worked with a client a little while ago cleaning up their grip and stance. I also taught them to reset the trigger in parallel, as opposed to in series, and how to see the aligned sights more quickly. After a couple of hours, we were shooting a sub-1" group, at 5 yards, at 3-4 shots a second...with a little work, we hope to get that closer to 5/shots/sec

 

[DefiantDad]

If you MUST have a 9mm, a Browning High Power is pretty close, but quite a bit easier to take down for cleaning. CZs are another close one, but with the CZ and the Browning you get a double stack magazine, so it feels fatter compared to a 1911. 9mm 1911s can be had, but they are all on the same frame, so if you buy a .45 frame, you could get a 9mm upper fitted to your gun, or do it yourself. Or vice versa.



Why don't you want a 1911?

Nice sig line by the way

Well, I have not really decided whether or not I want to get a 1911. At this stage mostly my question was to try to narrow down what are the causal factors for my shooting difference between my two guns and the 1911, so I was trying to figure out what aspects of the 1911 can be replicated in other guns, and maybe try those guns and see if those are the aspects, etc.

Anyway, I have nothing against the 1911. I might end up getting one sooner or later (darn!) but at the moment it seems that, with the generous help of people here, it is the ole trigger control that I need to focus on.

PS - you reckon a bumper sticker with "Luke 22:36" might catch on?

 

[bikerdoc]

it's just that I invested so much already in 9mm, I really do not want to have to "go there" and think about putting dollars towards a .45 platform.

Top - ATI 45
Bottom 9MM Taurus, Absofreakinlutly my favorite 1911. And I am a CZ fanboy from way back.

 

[holdencm9]

Well, looks like I am out the D-Spring option, as I got the 92A1 (poly trigger)

AFAIK that shouldn't matter. I could be wrong.

You just remove the grips, depress the lanyard ring, tap out the pin that holds it in place, and remove the existing spring. Then you put in the new spring. It is just a lighter spring which is why it greatly decreases the trigger pull in DA drastically, but I think it has a small benefit effect on the SA pull as well.

The factory spring is way stronger than necessary (20lbs), to meet military requirements (they anticipate SUPER hard primers with NATO ammo I guess) and you can go as far down as a 13lb spring, but I just went with the 16lb.

 

[Skylerbone]

No flames, but I think that for that statement to have a qualitative value, we would have to know how accurate that is, at what distance and how quickly you are shooting.

To offer a comparison, I worked with a client a little while ago cleaning up their grip and stance. I also taught them to reset the trigger in parallel, as opposed to in series, and how to see the aligned sights more quickly. After a couple of hours, we were shooting a sub-1" group, at 5 yards, at 3-4 shots a second...with a little work, we hope to get that closer to 5/shots/sec

Agreed. Accuracy comes from fundamentals and speed comes with their repetition. Better to suffer the difficult work now if the goal is consistent proficiency otherwise your mileage will vary.

 

[tarakian]

Oh, BTW, can I ask, if I *do* get a 1911 (gosh I really do not want to go there! :-D) are there barrel kits that can turn it into a 9mm shooter, so I can turn it back to its original .45, without having to buy TWO guns (9mm and .45).

You can do that with the Para P series of double stack 1911s. I have a P14-45 that I changed to a 9mm by buying a new upper kit from Para. You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.

Do you use the same ejector with both the .45ACP and 9mm uppers?

 

[bigfatdave]

You need to fit the new upper to the frame, but after that, you can switch back and forth as you please.

Do you use the same ejector with both the .45ACP and 9mm uppers?

Also curious, the only way I'm picturing it working is a slide/barrel mounted ejector or an off-center barrel in the smaller bore configuration

 

[coalman]

CZ75B is very good. But, you can't truly duplicate the 1911 trigger with a pivot design.