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Is this a normal spent primer?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Doc7, Oct 18, 2020.

  1. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    E11119CD-57EB-46A4-B579-A980E766026B.jpeg I have a new OEM breech plug in my old CVa Optima Pro

    is this normal? I am kind of wondering if supposed to look like this.

    if not I will just screw it to muzzleloading and buy a new rifle for BH209 and quick release breech plug.
     
  2. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    What brand of primer is it?
    Is it a regular 209 shotshell primer?
    It may just be a matter of trying another brand of primer.
    The primer doesn't look like it's pierced.

    I read a post where one guy said that he never had a Winchester 209 primer stick or bulge, but they may also be longer.
    It seems that there's nuances with some guns and primers that may involve some trial & error.

    Googling "bulged 209 primers" turned up some interesting results.
    For instance, here's a short thread where the OP states that his receiver was hard to open because of the primer bulging.
    The recommendation was to use Winchester 209 primers because they are perceived to be a tougher primer in the primer cup area. --->>> https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/primer-bulge.25937/

    Don't think that some folks with new guns don't have any breech plug and primer related woes because some certainly do.
    Skimming this thread will reveal some of the problems they have with sticky primers that don't fit right, needing to make adjustments to their firing pin housing sometimes by using a shim, and needing to seal the primer pocket by using an O-ring. --->>> https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/209-breech-plug-whoas.36562/page-2#post-316108

    None of the above methods may be necessary unless needed after trying different primers and then settling on one.

    And be sure to only use standard 209 primers with BH 209.
    The BH 209 website states:

    Blackhorn 209 is designed to work with standard 209 shotshell primers. .....
    .....We DO NOT recommend any of the 209 primers designated for muzzleloaders.

    Read the rest: --->>> https://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  3. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    Thanks I am using Federal muzzleloading 209 primers with two 50-50 pellets of Pyrodex And a 200 grain shockwave with Sabot.

    I really hate to switch primers now that I spent all this time sighting in but maybe I won’t have a choice
     
  4. whughett

    whughett Member

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    How many show that fired condition. It appears the primer cup was pushed back as far as the breech face would allow. Could be a one off?
     
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  5. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    It sort of seems that way, if a different primer can solve it.
    It shouldn't affect accuracy very much.
    I asked frontiergander to visit the thread.
    He knows more about making adjustments but the first option is to try a different primer before tinkering with the firing pin housing.
    Unless he suggests otherwise.
    But IMO you don't want to be unable to open the receiver by making the headspace tighter.
     
  6. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    I have had no issues opening ....

    Is it a safety issue at this point? If not .. may rather keep it this way for just my one shot of opening day of muzzleloader.... if it is a safety issue I will not.

    I used this box of primers last year and don’t remember noting seeing this. The only difference is the lot number of bullets and the breech plug itself which is from Midway:
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002212567?pid=116725

    I was paying particular attention to primers this time because it seemed like my first few had much deeper firing pin indents than I remember seeing and I had one shot at 1600 FPS, well below my normal, shot hit 5” low instead of 2” high at 100 yards, and the firing pin indent was much shallower....

    the strange thing is my chrono register a higher velocity (2000 FPS vs 1870s) this shot also? Is it maybe possible I loaded a double charge? Certainly couldn’t have loaded 150 as I drop 2 pellets at one time. It was my 8th or 9th shot of the day, never more than 2 shots without cleaning. No others had primers sticking past the cup.


    I am hyper focusing on primers because I was already nervous about replacing my lost breech plug and now I am just really not sure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  7. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    If that was your only bulged primer then don't worry about it.
    Perhaps there was an anomoly such as a build up of residue, broken pellets or interference with the flash.
    Other Federal primers are said to be soft for easier ignition, and maybe their 209's are also.
    The regular strength Federal 209's are said to be slightly shorter in the primer well area, not that it should matter to your gun.
    And you're not loading BH 209, which could create more issues with using ML primers.
    I think that you're good to go.
    Good luck and I hope that you bag a deer.
     
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  8. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    Thank you!

    think I will ask for a TC Pro Hunter FX or another known “good for BH209” rifle for Christmas/Birthday combined from the wife... :)
     
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  9. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    I ordered 4.5mm ID x 1mm Buna o rings from McMaster and I’ll also check out Winchester 209s if I can find them - I have not shopped for primers in years due to My own stock, so I have no idea if the 209s have gotten crushed by unrest and election cycles.. What’s a couple more shots to confirm zero, have less primer blowback and flow, and also not convince myself I need to buy a new $800 rifle?
     
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  10. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    You're on your own with the O-rings.
    frontiergander had recommended the 6mm O-rings, not that the ones you ordered aren't better. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/remington-209-primer-fouling.580868/#post-7192812

    I hope that they don't affect your action, making it harder to close or open when basically all is well at present.
    The Winchesters and the 6mm O-rings are mentioned in this thread, in posts #1 and #6 among other places. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/remington-209-primer-fouling.580868/#post-7192812

    Did you read about using the 4.5 mm O-rings somewhere?

    The Winchester 777 primers are on sale at Cabela's and Basspro if you're close enough to pick them up after ordering online. Although the Winchester 777 primers may be better than Federal, they weren't necessarily the ones everyone else uses in other threads. Some folks may be without specifying W 777 primers. They should be worth a try if they're anything like their regular W 209 primers. --->>> https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/winchester-209-777-primers

    At Basspro too. All other places that I checked were sold out. --->>> https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winchester-209-777-primers

    But if you buy a new gun you can't use them with BH 209, so don't buy too many if you won't be able to use them.
    The full strength Winchester 209's are out of stock everywhere online.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  11. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    A “006” o ring has an OD of 6.35 MM, the one I ordered (OD of 6.5) was direct from widely shared links on ModernMuzzleloader and seemed to fit the measurement of my plug.. but yes I am “on my own”!

    thanks for helping with the primer links! I will order from there (cabelas and bass pro aren’t too far a drive, one hour each way) if I can’t find at LGS.
     
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  12. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    33062636-36B0-42D3-9582-291D25BF09CC.jpeg I realized I actually have a box of the second one you recommended, I just bought this last week but read reviews about them having a bad “crud ring” which is why this box sits her unopened....


    The Winchester 777 is .299” / 7.60 mm.

    the federal I was using is 7.52 mm / .296”.

    does this slight different make that much, it is only .08 mm vs a 1 mm thick o ring that recommended elsewhere.

    might have been fine with my 20 year old breech plug which clearly had Much tighter tolerance than this one does, but it seems like I still have a ton of space to make up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  13. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Thanks for the input about the proper O-ring which I'll note and maybe you'll provide feedback about how they work out for others to learn from.
    777 primers were made to be less hot to prevent the 777 powder crud ring.
    It seems some reviewers think that they're a dirtier primer, so be sure to use a pick on the flash hole if needed.

    The bottom line is that there's a lot about 209 primers and individual guns that I don't know anything about and can't predict.
    If there's an easy way to prevent bulging by simply switching primers then it's worth a try by changing one item at a time.

    First directly compare the use of each primer.
    Then if you feel adventurous, try the O-rings and compare to see if they produce any changes or improvements or not.

    I'd think that sealing gases and as much residue as possible from blowing back would be a good thing as long as it doesn't negatively affect performance or function of the gun in any way.
    As long as the primers don't bulge, then you can evaluate if they're really dirtier or not, or if the O-rings can help address that issue or not.

    If not satisfied then you can always move on to another variable.
    But it's said to only change one item at a time, and then evaluate before changing another.
     
  14. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    42656439-A598-4D41-BFC1-E7641AD04108.jpeg 5E18C0E1-E7BC-4EF2-8594-C49D165229CD.jpeg Still have not gotten my hands on W209 yet. I did insert the 4.5 mm ID 1 mm thick 6.5 mm OD o ring in the breech plug, and also measured my primers as shown below. I will have time to fire 2-3 shots Wednesday when I go hang my new tree stand and report back on breech cleanliness and target impact consistency. My results other day indicated to me that the target is fine vs the chrono with limited time before sundown so I will not set it up, the results will be readily apparent on target. I plan to only shoot the longest 7.60+mm primers.
     
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  15. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    AA4D8DC7-9DC2-4759-B92C-D5332285F8BF.jpeg While I was at it I also ensured I have 9 pairs of pellets with consistent charge weights ...
     
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  16. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    F605BCCA-FC9B-4FC5-AEE5-A0D4046A9FDA.jpeg Well now I’ve got these, all I can do is try, I would not like it I had to try to resight it in with this new box :/
     
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  17. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    Good news and bad.

    The good news is, the o ring has definitely made my breech spotless, wow! Never seen this before ever. this is after four shots:

    F786765D-A9D4-4C80-B1A4-A96C246F991D.jpeg 023570C1-7BFB-40B0-A41D-448EE2D83A32.jpeg


    the bad news is, I have two bullets left from this lot number and don’t have an award winner. First and third shot are level with the bull and 1920 FPS and 1880 FPS. Second shot did not trigger my chrono and hit 3.5” low. There was no cleaning between first and second shot and then I cleaned for my third shot.

    my fourth shot is also pretty low and chrono said 1840 FPS.

    Any way. It ain’t a pretty group. But I have two bullets and two days to hunt (muzzleloader) this season, in a thick creek bottom from a stand. 3.5 MOA is barely there but doable, I will hold slightly high and hopefully get to fire one of my last two bullets (have only shot a deer in muzzleloader 2 out of 4 years trying). I think a 3.5 MOA rifle is ethically huntable for a 50-75 yard shot like I’ll have and that’s my plan. My second part of my plan is that the day I unload after muzzleloader, sending the breeCh plug out for a BH209 flash hole modification. If I can’t get it to 2 MOA or fewer with BH209 I will know I need to go on new rifle search this spring.


    18E8A18E-E387-40FC-9389-E42E9F2B1520.jpeg
     
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  18. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    I couldn't leave well enough alone - as I found another bullet and sabot when I was cleaning up so I cleaned the snot out of the barrel. I feel good about a clean bore. I would rather have it 2" high but knowing how finicky this scope is I am leaving it alone now.

    B160677B-08B9-48E7-BD57-B0F617E6015D.jpeg
     
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  19. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    0784E67A-B4A3-4679-BF82-8114E3EF1E76.jpeg

    Nothing to do but wait till Oct 31 now
     
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  20. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    I would be willing to bet your accuracy issues are from old pellets.
    You could always try 777 granulated. I patch after every shot because I try to run as close to a clean barrel as possible.
    BH209 isn't my friend even though I wanted it to be.
     
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  21. Loyalist Dave

    Loyalist Dave Member

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    CONTINENTALS QUESTION.jpg

    OK so just a little joke from the folks who use a rock, to make their weapons-system operate..., :rofl:


    LD
     
  22. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    I buy a fresh lot of pellets every September.
     
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  23. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    This NAML 209 primer strength test ranks them according to the amount of hot gases that each produces. --->>> http://www.namlhunt.com/mlprimers.html
     
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