Is this gun illegal?

[silicosys4]

S&W 1917 on an auction site that looks to me like it has had the serial # filed off the butt.
The seller states the serial number is found on the frame under the crane and is using that number as a serial number.
Auction site agrees with the seller.
My understanding is that any defacing of any serial number is a felony even if the number is duplicated elsewhere on the gun, regardless of the age of the gun. If it was there, and its gone, its a no-no.
Am I wrong? Do 1917's have a different location to the serial #'s than other S&W revolvers?
Felony or just a bubba'd gun?
Thanks.

 

[GBExpat]

The seller states the serial number is found on the frame under the crane and is using that number as a serial number.

The number under & on the crane is an assembly number.

The serial number will also be stamped on the rear of the cylinder and on the rear, underside of the barrel.

 

[Jim Watson]

It has been "scrubbed."
There are untold numbers of Smith & Wessons registered by the assembly number, especially those with target grips covering the butt.
But this one is misappropriated government property with coverup attempted.

I don't think the BATF will descend on the seller, but why chance it?

 

[hdwhit]

You might want to post this on the Legal forum and let one of the attoneys opine as to the legality of the piece.

You can also check out the S&W forum (smith-wessonforum.com) and see if anyone there can answer your question about where the serial number would be on a gun of this vintage.

 

[RPRNY]

The serial number for the 1917 was on the grip lower strap in front of the lanyard ring. Behind it, the strap should read US Army Model 1917. Like this:

If civilian, the SN should still be there:

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Sit in a comfy chair, pour a cup of coffee and read this: http://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/

 

[Jim Watson]

If this revolver came to official notice, the BATF lawyer need not argue that the present holder removed the serial number. The law says that mere possession of a firearm with deleted serial number is illegal. So if it could be shown that the holder acquired the gun after the law took effect, the ex post facto argument does not apply and he is guilty.
Right, Frank?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Sit in a comfy chair, pour a cup of coffee and read this: http://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/

A decent article, but let's cut to the chase: the gun in the OP is illegal.

• Guns could legally be manufactured prior to 1968 without a serial number.
  
  
• In the case of any gun on which the manufacturer put a serial number, whenever it was made (pre- or post- 1968) possession is illegal if that serial number was obliterated or defaced.
  
  
• See 18 USC 922(k), emphasis added:

  (k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

  
  
• As federal courts have held, affirming convictions for violations of 18 USC 922(k):
  
  
  • U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993):

    ...We turn to defendant's argument that his conviction for violating 18 U.S.C. 922(k) was also based on insufficient evidence. Defendant argues the government failed to sufficiently show that the revolver's serial number was removed, obliterated, or altered. He asserts the statute does not reach serial numbers that are still readable.
    
    Police officers testified that the serial number was obliterated. In addition, an expert in firearms and tool mark examination testified the revolver's serial number was partially obscured or obliterated. The examiner also noted that it was possible one or two additional serial numbers were completely obliterated. Based on the clear language of 922(k), we reject defendant's argument that the statute does not reach the firearm recovered by the police in this case. The evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction, and we AFFIRM the jury's verdict....

    
    
  • See also U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (Fed. 1st Cir., 2002)(emphasis added):

    ...As for the evidence, that was clearly sufficient once it is understood that any alteration that works against legibility is enough; ...The pistol was presented to the jury. The case agent testified at trial that he could read the six digits of the serial number but with difficulty. At oral argument, Adams's counsel asked that this court examine the original pistol, and we now report the results.
    
    ...
    
    Of course, judgment as to the degree of impairment was for the jury. But a reasonable jury could easily conclude that this pistol had been altered so as to make it appreciably more difficult to read the serial number. Indeed, a reasonable jury could hardly reach any other conclusion...

 

[silicosys4]

A decent article, but let's cut to the chase: the gun in the OP is illegal.

• Guns could legally be manufactured prior to 1968 without a serial number.
  
  
• In the case of any gun on which the manufacturer put a serial number, whenever it was made (pre- or post- 1968) possession is illegal if that serial number was obliterated or defaced.
  
  
• See 18 USC 922(k), emphasis added:
  
  ​
  
  
• As federal courts have held, affirming convictions for violations of 18 USC 922(k):
  
  • U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993):
    
    ​
    
    
  • See also U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (Fed. 1st Cir., 2002)(emphasis added):
    
    ​

Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Ettin
That's what I needed to know.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The law is explained (in detail) in the link posted above but Frank Ettin's post is an excellent concise summary of the law.

OP #1 Question: "Felony or just a bubba'd gun?"
My inexpert opinion is that it is illegal, potentially felony, and bubba'd. The full jpeg image magnified 800% suggests the butt has been filed, showing bright metal with scratch marks.

"It has been "scrubbed." ... misappropriated government property with coverup attempted."
That is a reasonable assumption but that assumes evidence not at hand. There are a lot of military guns legally in private hands subjected to misguided attempts at customizing. One could also assume the grip was ignorantly reworked after removing the lanyard loop with equal lack of evidence of intent. It is definitely an obliterated ser. num. and therefore illegal whether through innocent or felonious intent.

Also we should not push the belief that if you innocently acquire what turns out to be a questionable firearm, you is doomed, you is gonna die or you is gonna go to the big house. Locally at least, if you contact ATF regulators about a questionable firearm, they won't treat you as a felon but, since a obliterated ser. num. cannot be fixed, you would be told to surrender the firearm as contraband. If you were caught by ATF enforcement agents with a contraband firearm, they could (and probably would) treat it as a felony violation.

 

[Acera]

The BATFE does have a procedure where you submit a firearm for re-serialization. It is up to them if they approve it or not. If the seller would check on that, he might be ok. However I bet he does not think anything is wrong and he is trying to unload it, probably not wanting to spend any extra money on it that would not be realized in a sale.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know of one case locally. A friend working in a pawn shop took in a S&W with main serial number deleted. The guy who pawned it got a visit from assorted LE, the original owner got his gun back based on the basis of an unobvious remaining number. But that was a good many years ago and I do not know current policy.

I saw one example of innocent deletion on the www. A gun that had been drawfiled all over to leave a blank canvas for 100% coverage engraving. Never heard if the proud owner was able to get that one legitimized.

 

[RecoilRob]

I saw one example of innocent deletion on the www. A gun that had been drawfiled all over to leave a blank canvas for 100% coverage engraving. Never heard if the proud owner was able to get that one legitimized.

Hmmm...never though about that. Wonder if you had the original SN that you couldn't restamp it somewhere else? Would that require permission of some type from the BATFE? In my simple mind, as long as the gun still bore the original SN...even if moved to somewhere else...it would still allow the paper-trail of ownership so it would be OK. Maybe I'll be trying to explain that to my cellmate somewhere down the road.

 

[Elkins45]

The only way I would ever be in possession of that gun is if the zombie apocalypse were in full swing. I passed on a similar gun on an Armslist deal a few years ago for this very reason--in fact it was this same model of gun. The seller also tried to convince me the assembly number was a valid SN. Are you in Kentucky by chance?

 

[cjwils]

I am not an expert on this, but I have been told that the number of the butt of any military model 1917 is a military number with may (or may not) be different from the manufacture's serial number. I bought a model 1917 once. In my case the numbers were the same, but the FFL looked at the number under the crane just to be sure.

 

[cjwils]

I found this on another website:
"... on a S&W 1917 the serial is on the butt, and the number in the yoke area is a meaningless assembly number. On a Colt 1917 the official serial number is in the yoke area, and the number on the butt is an Army serial number that only the military used. So a Colt with the number removed from the butt would be perfectly legal but a S&W would not."

If that quotation is true, then what I said in the post above does not apply to a S&W.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Wonder if you had the original SN that you couldn't restamp it somewhere else? Would that require permission of some type from the BATFE?....

As far as I know.

.......In my simple mind, as long as the gun still bore the original SN...even if moved to somewhere else...it would still allow the paper-trail of ownership so it would be OK....

But what matters is what the judge might say. And without some case law to support you, there's no reason to believe that a judge would agree with you.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

M1 Carbines often had the serial number restamped by the military if the original number was obscured by replacement of the "L" sight with the adjustable sight. My bet is that, as far as ATF is concerned, the original ser num is the official serial number and it should be intact.

That is an interesting note on the difference between official ser num on Colt and S&W M1917 revolvers.

On any obliterated ser num, I would definitely contact ATF regulatory agents on the question of raising an obliterated ser num through acid etching and restamping it and save any ATF letters on the issue. It would have to be a rare and precious gun to justify the bother. I would definitely not want to get caught with a gun with obliterated serial number by ATF enforcement agents.