Is this safe?

[Conqueror]

I'm having this debate on another website and want to see if I'm crazy or not.

Please look at the following pictures and the text below.

The debate is over whether the actions depicted are safe. The boys who took the photos, and several other people on the other website, say that the actions depicted are safe because the boys are familiar with firearms and ensured they were unloaded. I say they are unsafe because of the chance - however small - that they screwed up and the guns are loaded.

BEFORE VOTING, please don't vote just because they are violating the rules of gun safety. It is obvious that they are violating all of Cooper's rules; we don't need a poll to decide that. The real question at hand is whether it is safe to break the rules with a gun you personally verified to be unloaded.

Thanks,
CQ

 

[Anteater1717]

he boys who took the photos, and several other people on the other website, say that the actions depicted are safe because the boys are familiar with firearms and ensured they were unloaded.

Gun's should always be treated as if they were loaded regardless.

 

[suemarkp]

Sometimes you have to violate the rules -- you can't clean a gun and not (assuming you have to clean from the muzzle). But balancing that is the need to violate the rules -vs- screwing around with guns and violating the rules. I voted OTHER because I can't decide, and would lean towards safe as long as they don't point them at people. But the gun in the waistband and the one rifle on the guys stomach is pushing it. ANd if they ahve been out of their control for a second, it becomes unsafe.

 

[Risasi]

Is this a serious question?



The answer is obvious and emphatic.



However I have done stupid stuff like that before. It's relatively harmless in the present. The problem is one develops bad habits as you carry on. It takes awhile to break bad habits. Sometimes too late.

Also the whole deal with Cooper's four rules is you can get away with breaking any one of the four (not that you should), and something bad should still not happen.


[EDIT] P.S. About the least safe item being depicted is poor trigger control. Three fingers on the trigger.

 

[.38 Special]

Rule #1: it's loaded. Hence "It's unloaded" isn't a valid defense, unless perhaps the action is open.

Having said that, I don't see any muzzles covering anything that couldn't stand to have a hole in it. If that situation is maintained, then yes, it's "safe".

<edit> Oops, should have looked at the first pic more closely. The fellow on the right has two guns pointing into his midsection. That is, simply put, not safe.

 

[igpoobah]

The rules are sacred and never to be broken.

Regardless of what you 'think' you know about the firearm's current condition...

 

[tnieto2004]

You might be surprised what SOME people on here will say .. I posted a video of a guy clearing a jam with a gun pointed in the direction of his head and stomping on the bolt carrier.. Most people on here were supporting him and saying he was being perfectly safe..

 

[Conqueror]

That's why I posted this, and yes, it's a serious question. While it's obviously unsafe to me, it's not so clear to others, or may even be clearly safe. I want to know which way folks lean here.

 

[Thernlund]

I voted OTHER. I find myself assuming too much to make a comfortable decision. Did they really check the guns? What amount of experience do they actually have?

I will submit that in the last two pics they have their fingers on the triggers, which tells me that they do not have enough experience to have subconscious trigger finger discipline. That is to say, speaking from personal experience, I actually have to THINK ABOUT putting my finger on the trigger. Otherwise is just doesn't tend to go there. It would appear that they have it the other way around, which would imply less training/experience, yeah?


-T.

 

[Conqueror]

Oops, should have looked at the first pic more closely. The fellow on the right has two guns pointing into his midsection. That is, simply put, not safe.

As does the 2nd photo, with the fellow dual-wielding some Pants Revolvers.

 

[G.A. Heath]

one missed round in one chamber at the wrong time can happen, I have the scars (yes plural) from one incident to prove it.

 

[Ed Ames]

no, for three reasons
1) too easy to miss one chamber in all the confusion
2) such "play" can lead to bad habits
3) communicates bad habits to others

 

[gunsmith]

if you had

included "unsafe and stupid" I would have clicked that.
When they get a ND from an "unloaded gun" hopefully they will learn their lesson.
I hope no one has to die first.:banghead:

even safety nazis like me "lern" knew things...sorry about en versus in

I feel ill even looking at those photos.

 

[10-Ring]

So, is there another rule that states it's okay to treat a gun as unloaded if horse play is involved?
The second you start F'n around, someone gets hurt

 

[19-3Ben]

I see fingers on triggers in the last two pictures, but even if the fingers were off the triggers, i think i would still say it's an example of unsafe gun handling. It's one thing to take out a gun (or several) and fondle it/them. Posing with firearms is also not a problem, assuming that the people in the picture are following the 4 laws.
However, this was NOT posing with firearms. This was taking a picture of people screwing around with guns!!! They are NOT toys. They are NOT to be treated as such. You wanna get goofy and silly and let loose? fine. But don't get goofy and silly when you have several guns in your hands!!! that is completely unacceptable behavior, and if I saw my friends treating my firearms that way, I would pack the guns back in the safe. Period. You don't have to break any one of the 4 laws to be unsafe. You just have to act like a jackass.

 

[General Geoff]

You must define "safe."


If by "safe" you mean harmless, then yes it's safe.

If by "safe" you mean without potential for harm, then it's unsafe.

Simply put, all actions carry risk. Pointing real firearms (loaded or not) at body parts of yourself or another carries with it an inherent risk. If the folks in the photos were confident that they had checked said firearms thoroughly before posing for the pictures, more power to 'em, so long as they're not pointing the rifles at innocent bystanders.

 

[Feanaro]

I sometimes think people are safety nazis. "You put your finger on the trigger for a staged photo, NO GUN FOR YOU!"

This isn't one of those times. The first two pictures, while not exactly towering monuments to man's intellectual side, aren't as bad as some. The third... fingers on trigger and in extreme proximity to one another.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

This is a tangent from original thread, but this is something that boggles my mind.

The rules are sacred and never to be broken.

Regardless of what you 'think' you know about the firearm's current condition...

How do you clean your weapon then? Obviously no one wants to clean a loaded weapon, but if you insist it is always loaded, you could never clean it. Likewise, if you want to make the range safe by unloading the weapons before allowing people downrange, how does one ever go downrange if all weapons are always loaded? How about being who need to unload their weapon before casing it or leaving a firing line?

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but there are clearly times when one must consider a weapon to be unloaded to perform certain actions. If the rules are absolute that you must always treat a gun as if it were loaded, how do you field strip it, install a scope, refinish a stock, change choke tubes, or any number of the other tasks that require an unloaded weapon to perform?

How do you reconcile the fact that certain aspects of gun ownership clearly require one to treat a gun as if it is unloaded if you adhere strictly to the all guns are always loaded rule? Do you say put the rule, "Well, it's loaded except for right after I check it to strip it, then it is unloaded" or do you just say, "Well, this is loaded, but I'll strip it anyway."?

 

[Conqueror]

they can't even spell "insured"

Sorry, you're wrong on that one (it's my writing, not theirs). To Insure something is to protect it financially against loss. To Ensure something is to make sure of it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insure
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ensure

 

[igpoobah]

they can't even spell "insured"

Actually, ensured would be the correct spelling for the context in which it is being used.

But that's neither here nor there...

 

[19-3Ben]

As an aside, in the second picture, the guy has a shotgun with a nice shiny wood stock, and an obviously aftermarket camo barrel. He loses style points right there. Baaaad taste my friend.

 

[Risasi]

included "unsafe and stupid" I would have clicked that.
When they get a ND from an "unloaded gun" hopefully they will learn their lesson.

I hope no one has to die first.

Oh, come on gunsmith. That's called natural selection.

----

Feanaro,

I didn't say "NO GUN FOR YOU". I just say be ready to do the time if you do something stupid.

----

Conqueror,


No, that is not safe. One should always try to follow all four of the rules.

 

[Big Boomer]

keep your booger hook off the bang switch!

 

[skarpenz]

Those guys were probably tanked IMO. Drunkenness and playing with guns just isn't a good idea.

 

[Feanaro]

Feanaro,

I didn't say "NO GUN FOR YOU". I just say being ready to do the time if you do something stupid.

Reading before you type can often bring useful insights.