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Is this time different - is this a tipping point?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Feb 18, 2018.

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  1. bersaguy

    bersaguy Member

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    I hope this is a tipping point. I hope this tragedy is the impetus to have meaning security for our schools. I hope this makes us realize that when a child is obviously troubled, we can not shuffle them around to another school or call the police out to the house as a scare tactic.

    For the folks looking for a reason to ban weapons...this is the wrong horse to bet on. From the reported history of the shooter, he should have been:
    1. Arrested for domestic violence
    2. Baker Acted to a mental faculty
    3. Arrested for conspiracy to commit an act of terrorism
    Any one of these would have precluded him from acquiring ANY firearm legally, and may have put him in a position to get some meaningful help.

    The argument I hear often for an outright repeal of the 2nd amendment is that it is outdated, that the founders never envisioned modern weapons. Well, ok...fair enough. But if that's true, then the rest of the Bill of Rights is up for review. The founders never envisioned radio, television, or the internet...should the 1st amendment be repealed for being outdated? Dangerous ideas can be spred so quickly now. The founders never envisioned computers or smartphones that can hold vast amounts of information, should the 4th Amendment be repealed or amended for being outdated?

    An outright ban can not happen (or constitutionaly should not happen) without amending or repealing the 2nd Amendment. Doing so opens the Pandora's box which ends in eviscerating our most fundamental rights
     
  2. pezo

    pezo Member

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    Yes. I’m sick to death hearing of mass shootings and school shootings in particular. I have school aged kids I am a father. My soul wants to explode when I hear of these things. I’m pro second. If I thought gun control would work I’d be open to it. It won’t and I’m not. But having this continue and lose my rights to defend myself with a firearm is even worse than just having this happen again. We need to do something to stop mass shootings on the pro gun side and get out of the defensive. Otherwise the anti’s will get what they want. That is not acceptable.
     
  3. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    Might be the tipping point is that we ALL go on the offensive and use truth and facts to stop the anti lies in their tracks. All of us on the exact same page over and over would be using their tactics/playbook and throwing them back on the antis..
     
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  4. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    We had small student walk outs here covered in parts of page 1, 2, 3, of Wednesday's paper 21 Feb 2018. The students were quoted as saying they wanted social media threats taken seriously, security beefed up, maybe metal detectors at entrances. They complained that some entrances are left unlocked when most entrances require the students to swipe their student ID cards to open. The school (2,200 students) has two School Resource Officers SROs.

    A walk out student at another school was quoted as saying: "I was trying not to make it about gun control necessarily." That school, 2013, two students were thwarted while planning an attack to kill students and faculty.

    The local walk-out students apparently were focussed on indentifying threats and beefing up school security. That should be our focus too.
     
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  5. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    The Dept of Justice---

    Doesn't it need more than a few days to create any sweeping new regulation? With debates about so many complex issues, will the anti-Sec.Amendment types' irrational demands be a bit muffled in the media noise for a while, as they debate priorities about the mental health arguments, and very tricky mental "legal, court adjudication" debates, along with fortifying school buildings, allowing some teachers to be armed, along with the min. age to buy a gun?

    Or is it up to a single group with the loudest, most emotional voices covered by MSNBC and CNN etc? I don't 'Facebook', haven't seen their iPhone propaganda from Silicon Valley in northern "California". ;).

    FROGO207: using the most helpful facts could help.
    But are there 1-2 pages I can copy from the Internet, and keep it with me? I don't know where to search. Not kidding here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  6. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Two SRO's are apparently not enough for that large a school. Why not have the students, on a volunteer rotational basis, augment the SRO's, acting as additional "eyes and ears," securing unlocked doors, monitoring social media, etc.? This could even be a recognized extracurricular activity, "Security Patrol." Suggestions like this could deflect attention from draconian gun control proposals.
     
  7. toivo

    toivo Member

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    Unfortunately, NY State didn't repeal theirs; they just de-funded it. It's still on the books, but they quietly closed down the database and the archive of fired casings, laid off or reassigned the staff that were administering them, and stopped flushing all that money down the toilet. The could bring it all back with the stroke of the budget pen if they wanted.
     
  8. toivo

    toivo Member

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    I'm getting overload on discussing this issue, but I have to get a few points out there just to clarify my own thinking.
    • It's obvious that these kids that I'm seeing on TV are having their strings pulled by someone. I'm not talking crisis-actor conspiracy theories, but somebody's paying for those busses, and somebody is auditioning for the "best and brightest" kids to emote in front of the cameras. I don't doubt that the kids want to do it, but if you tell me that they're organizing and funding it themselves, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
    • I have to laugh at media figures solemnly telling us that these kids are the ones who are going to lead the country into the glorious future of gun control. I could just as easily find you a couple of busloads of 16-year-olds who would go on camera with a fervent defense of the Second Amendment. Perhaps this is the direction the NRA should be looking in.
    • If people truly, truly believe that their kids are in danger every day that they are in school, how could they possibly argue against hardening the schools? Seriously, if I told some parents that armed men were headed for their kid's school with the intent to do harm, would they call the cops, or would they start advocating for more gun control? Either the danger is ever-present and imminent or it isn't. If it is, and you dismiss the option of hardening the schools in favor of advocating for gun control, then you're gambling your kid's life to advance your agenda. I heard one father say that he doesn't want schools that look like armed camps. Really? Your kid's life is less important than how things look?
    • Our society has some serious problems that need to be looked at. It's not just mental health, but that's part of it. There have always been people in society who act out violently, and society has to deal with them. Unfortunately, now they have a script for how to act out in such a way as to inflict maximum carnage and get maximum attention. (I'm going to make some controversial statements here, but give yourself a moment to think it over before you blast back.)
    1. Mainstreaming of kids with serious behavioral issues is meant to help them adjust to society, but all too often it makes them targets for bullying and rejection, leaving them even more isolated and angry/depressed.
    2. First-person-shooter video games, while relatively harmless for "normal" kids, are toxic for disturbed kids, feeding their rage and revenge fantasies while sharpening their skills for the real thing.
    3. Relentless media coverage of previous shootings gives them plenty of material to mull over, both for feeding their fantasies (as with the video games) and for figuring out the logistics of their own attack.
    So now violent "bad actors" have a pattern to follow. Instead of getting in playground fights and eventually escalating their violence to conventional forms of assault or murder, they just flip open the playbook that runs from Columbine to Sandy Hook to Sutherland Springs to Parkland. I would even lump the Las Vegas guy in there, although he took a much longer path to his final meltdown.
    It's getting harder and harder for people in general to figure out where they fit in and how to have just a good old "normal" life. For people with mental health and behavioral issues, it's almost impossible unless they have a good, solid family structure behind them. This kid had none of that. Here's where I get a bit conflicted: While I as an individual can feel some compassion for him, I don't think society can afford that luxury. People who do something as horrendous as this, for whatever reason, have forfeited their right to live among us. He's like a mad dog that has to be either put down or locked up forever. It's that simple.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  9. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Well stated Toivo.

    Good talking points for those that want to start a "conversation" about gun control.
    I'm amazed at the callousness and disconnect of the no child left behind crowd who ignore the plight of the shooter and go right for the tool.
     
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  10. 0ne3

    0ne3 Member

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    why isn't any one asking, Why is this Happening?
     
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  11. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I can't answer but to put some meat behind your question... and this really concerns me...

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/...=dlZIpEkErEnPvWMA0Awv6ONWHTIhM&ned=us&topic=h
    Not to change the subject or derail the thread, too many kids still aren't being taught critical thinking skills. It also seems to lack compassion.
     
  12. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    If one hasn't noticed - this in not going to happen. Heller had poison pill language that is being used in the lower courts to defend state bans on EBRs and the like. Need we go over that again? You have two justices that might be amenable to such - the rest aren't. They have turned down cases and I'd bet if the current court took one, that reasonable restrictions would win the day and sink EBRs if legislation was passed to ban them.

    This time the legislation would take out all semis, mags from production and importation plus have mandatory turn ins. Don't expect a grandfather clause. Now how you do that with 5 to 12 million of them in circulation is a different problem.
     
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  13. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Assault Weapon Ban II will stop the next school shooting like the first Assault Weapon Ban (1994-2004) stopped the Columbine High School massacre (1999).

    But we are dealing with the mentality that believed burning Beatles White Albums was "doing something" in response to the Manson Family Helter Skelter murders.

    The schools are huge and impersonal.
    That leads to cliques of insiders and outsiders, bullying and harrassment.
    Kids with emotional problems get drugs that don't resolve their problems.

    The easy answer is to ban the TEC9 used at Columbine, the AR15 used at Stoneman Douglas.
    Solutions to social problems are harder than just banning symbols; if that voodoo criminology worked, juvenile delinquency would have ended in America when the Kefauver Commission got "Tales From The Crypt" banned.
     
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  14. Citadel99
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    Citadel99 Contributing Member

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    Probably preaching to the choir here but the reason nobody is asking why this is happening is because that's a tough question. One that requires introspection. One that requires tough answers. And, as a society, we don't do that anymore. Much easier to treat the symptom than to get to the root cause.

    The problem with that question is also that it isn't a single answer. It's many answers. If you ask me, here are a few that quickly come to mind:
    --both parents working, nobody with the kids
    --lack of discipline
    --parents wanting to be friends instead of parents
    --people not going to church
    --violent video games and movies that numb us to death and violence
    --relationships are through devices instead of with people

    What's missing is an intellectually honest conversation. FROM BOTH SIDES. But the time for that conversation isn't in the immediate aftermath of a school shooting. Emotions are too high. We need to have this conversation when things aren't at emotional extremes.

    Should there be an honest look at policies recommendations on our side? Absolutely. Do background checks on all gun sales. Fix the system so it works. Nobody wants crazy people and criminals with guns. Period. Work together on that. Our side saying we won't budge is no different that their side saying we want an all out ban. Figure out a complete plan to protect schools that is more in depth than "arm teachers." Focus on protecting our children first.

    Also, realize that people on both sides don’t want to face the reality that the 2nd Amendment is completely about AR15s. Shooting and hunting happen to be my hobbies of choice; however, the 2nd Amendment is NOT about target shooting and hunting. Gun people don’t like this but the 2nd Amendment, as written, isn’t even about the right to have a gun to protect yourself from criminals although the Supreme Court has now interpreted it as such. The 2nd Amendment is about having the types of weapons that allow the People to ensure the security of a free state. That was important to our founding fathers. It’s 2018 and a musket doesn’t ensure that freedom. A lot of people say what can an AR15 do against an Army as powerful as the United States? Simply look at history...the Viet Cong, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

    Know that less people are shooting, hunting, growing up around guns. Our numbers are shrinking and theirs are growing. Best bet is honest conversations and solutions now vs "we won't budge" and losing all out down the road.

    Just my .02 and thoughts.

    Mark
     
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  15. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Those games are played around the world. Why are these countries not affected the same way?
     
  16. spitballer

    spitballer Member

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    Maybe. Correcting poor behavior is more expensive than slapping on gun controls, but the very fact that our CIC has highlighted the issue of derangement may indicate that our esteemed colleagues in Washington are working to address the real problem and not just resorting to another cheap fix with dubious consequences. Americans are not known for their self-discipline but in the future maybe we should be.
     
  17. 5whiskey

    5whiskey Member

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  18. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Those are EXCELLENT points! There's no super-like button so I'm saying props to you bersaguy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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  19. Original Warhorse

    Original Warhorse Member

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    Knee jerk reactions, and laws passed in response to those are not the solution
     
  20. Big7

    Big7 Member

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    Here's what will happen. Just like always.
    Anything else in Unconstitutional.
     

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  21. Legionnaire
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    Nothing will change until legislators and bureaucrats start talking about hardening targets.
     
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  22. indyogb

    indyogb Member

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    Spot on. I've heard that perspective several times on the news and that's my first thought as well. Refusing to adapt to a "new reality" is usually not a hallmark of "progress". I hear people lamenting this when speaking about jobs that have disappeared and how technology has changed the way things work. Yet, the mere appearance of something they dislike (guns) is enough to dismiss a potential solution. When I juxtapose this with airport security, I just can't believe how the stupidest solutions so often gain the most traction.
     
  23. Citadel99
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    Citadel99 Contributing Member

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    Valid point, however, as I said the reason is complex and multi faceted. You can't pin this on a single issue as everyone wants to do. Do uber realistic killing games numb people to death and pain? Probably so. We have had parents we know letting their 8 year olds play Call of Duty. Really?

    Are guns being more readily available in the United States also a contributing factor? Probably so.

    Mark
     
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  24. vito

    vito Member

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    I think that this event will bring about more pressure on 2nd Amendment supporters than any other past mass shooting. Some of the reasons for this have already been pointed out, but one additional factor is present. Right now the Democrats have literally nothing to push to get the edge they want in the Nov 2018 midterm elections. They were counting on the public being unhappy with the tax reform bill, but to their dismay it is becoming increasingly liked by the public. They are throwing all of their energy into this issue because they think it may be the one issue on which they can win back Congress. Having a President who already, this early in the progression of this event, has agreed to several things highly desired by the anti gun advocates, including raising the age of buying any firearm to 21, universal background checks (which will become a national registration database, so hold on to the guns that the government does not know you have because they will know of all new ones, even if bought from a friend or relative), banning of "bump stocks" and I fear that he will crumble on AR15 style rifles. If the President shows some willingness to ban semi auto military looking rifles, most of his Republican supporters in Congress will fold as well. If you don't have an AR, but want one, I would strongly suggest getting one in the next couple of weeks, at most. I think we as supporters of the 2nd Amendment are in for a rough ride. What we should be doing right now is trying to convince every single gun owner we know to join the NRA if not already a member.
     
  25. toivo

    toivo Member

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    I think that's the case. It's the combination of factors.
     
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