Is Winchester value pack and white box the same ammo?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by jagdpanzer347, Oct 14, 2006.

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  1. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    Just picked up some 9mm value pack at Walmart for my new P1. Part number USA9MMVP. Is there any difference in this bulk-packed ammo and the fifty round boxes? I'm using it for target practice/plinking so this is just to satisfy my curiosity more than anything.

    -jagdpanzer
     
  2. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    EDIT: Removed post due to better info provided by Tuner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2006
  3. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Ammo

    No, it's not the same. Winchester Q4170 (.45 ACP Ball) USA "White Box" is a noticeable cut above the Valu-Pak stuff, both in quality and consistency, and the performance on-target and across the chronograph reflects it.
     
  4. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    1911Tuner,can you or someone else give me an idea on the differences in accuracy and velocity of these two types of ammo? I shoot .40 and .45 as well. If it's that big of a difference in performance,I may as well pay a little more for better ammo. All replies appreciated.

    -jagdpanzer
     
  5. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Difference

    Howdy jagdpanzer. I ran a test on it about 2 years ago, and quoting from memory...but it's accurate, since I don't run many ammo tests unless there's a new kid on the block that I wanna check out.

    Besides the ammo being dirty when fired, the brass is short/out-of-spec at an average of .885-.888 inch long after sizing, and the velocity has a lot of variation...running from a low of 770 to a high of 820+fps. Not conducive to the best accuracy. This was a test of 2 10-round groups in 2 different lots
    for a total of 40 rounds chronographed. Q4170 generally varies less than 25 fps in a 10-round test lot, and the brass is consistently .893-.895 inch...which is good for consistent primer ignition.

    The Valu-Pak ammo issn't bad for general use and fast action practice, where the targets are close and large, and does a pretty good number on falling plate machines with 8-inch plates at 10 and 15 yards...but it falls apart at 20 and 25. At least in my hands. Note that I'm not that sharp on 25-yard plates unless I really bear down. A better shooter may have better results.

    If you're into target work at distance, and want to get a better idea of what your gun will do, go with the USA brand. If you're a close-range practioner of
    fast defensive type shooting or IDPA/IPSC matches, the VP will do.
     
  6. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    1911Tuner,thank you for your fast reply. I guess I'll have to do a little side by side comparison and see what difference I find in accuracy. As if I need another excuse to buy and try more ammo! LOL. Have you shot any of the 9mm and .40, or just the .45? Thanks again.

    -jagdpanzer
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    9mm

    Shot some of the 9 through a WW2-era Walther P38 and got several failures to fire and a few failures to extract. No problems with the pistol with PMC or USA 9mm. The failures to fire lit with a second strike.
     
  8. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    Well, I'll soon see how the P1 likes the value pack. I noticed it does have the USA logo on the box. This is the first value pack I have bought, always bought the .40 and .45 fifty round boxes before. After all these years of shooting I finally bought a nine. Again, thanks for your help.

    -jagdpanzer
     
  9. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    White Box

    Look on the end flap for the code Q4170 on .45 ACP. At last check, it was about 245 a case, plus tax. Fairly high-dollar for ball, but it's good stuff and seems to be loaded to GI spec. I'll try to find the code for 9mm for ya. Stand by...
     
  10. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Ammo

    Here's the page. The 4172 is the top grade stuff. The bottom USA is, I believe, the Valu-Pak. The 124-grain load is as good as the 4172, but likely loaded to NATO spec. I shot a box of it and it seemed to be a trifle rambunctious unless fired in a modern pistol. A P35 should handle it fine.
    Probably be okay in a Luger in good shape...but the P38 is a rarely-fired heirloom and I don't wanna bend it.

    http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgunlist.aspx?cart=OW1tIEx1Z2Vy&bn=4&use=2&type=3
     
  11. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Is this a version of the old "hot ammo for a Luger" legend?

    Had a good crack at busting that myth today. A friend came up with a Finnish surplus Luger, with Tikka replacement barrel. (Also clunky but visible square blade front sight and coarse hot reblue.) He had bought it some Fiocchi 124 gr ball ammo for positive operation. It was stout ammo, with a loud bark and sharp kick. But it would not run the gun. Two shots in a row without bolt-over-base malfs were a rare accomplishment. I recalled a piece that said an overdriven Luger will often look like an underdriven Luger as the toggle bounces back too fast for the slanted magazine to deliver a round.
    So I went back to my car and fetched out some of my IDPA match ammo, a 147 RN loaded long and light, about 900 fps. The gun functioned flawlessly through all I had left after the match. He then rummaged around and found some WWB in his effects. The Finn shot THAT reliably, too, with noticeably less bang and buck than the Fiocchi.

    Remember, the ORIGINAL Lugers are 7.65 with a 93 grain bullet at 1200 fps. That is not a hot load, but the guns work.
     
  12. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Luger

    Nope, Jim...but I have noticed that some of the 115-grain commercial stuff won't jack the toggle all the way on many of'em, while the 124-grain stuff will. Probably the heavier impulse from the heavier bullet...
     
  13. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    So I'm not sure I'm following. The OP started with a question about the 9mm round, and we got talking about .40 and .45's. I only shoot 9mm, so I Am curious about this question, if anyone cares to elaborate.

    I but the white-box ammo, sometimes in the 50 round box (with the styrofoam dividers) and sometimes the 100 round valu-pack with no special packing, just randomly piled in rounds.

    I have a valu-pack right now and I looked at the flap, its the USA9MMVP. I don't have a box of the 50 round, but are you saying that is a different round? They both have the USA logo on them, and appear to be the same round.

    Is this incorrect? I buy the valu-packs at walmart for about 12-14 bucks each, usually 4 or 5 boxes at a time. If this is a less quality round, perhaps I won't do that anymore.

    What's the real story on this difference in the 9mm?
     
  14. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    Here's the specs from winchesters webwsite. It looks like the USA9MM is the best stuff here? Is that right?




     
  15. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Same Same?

    Sean...They're theoretically the same..but they're not the same. If you'll hit the link above, you'll see that the 4172 and the one with VP suffix are both 115-grain 9mm loads, but 4172 is loaded to a higher quality standard than the VP....likely brass or bullets that were QAed out as "Seconds" or maybe loaded with an end-run of powder. Hard to say why...but there has to be a reason that with (theoretically) the same ammo, one is so much cheaper than the other, besides packaging.

    Like I noted earlier...I've noticed a difference in both .45 and 9mm, though I haven't chronographed or targeted any of the 9 for accuracy.

    The 124-grain stuff is...as noted...a bit rambunctious, and very likely loaded to NATO specs. A little rougher on guns than the 115-grain fodder.
     
  16. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    Sean, have you been happy with the VP ammo's performance? Tuner mentioned he had some rounds that did not fire on the first strike, have you?
    I usually like to buy ammo in either five hundred or a thousand round cases and Walmart seems to have the price to beat.

    I wanted to buy some Fiocchi from AIM when I picked up the P1, but they didn't have a box in the whole warehouse. Tim told me they sent it all overseas. I did find some at a local place for the low,low price of twelve bucks per fifty!

    -jagdpanzer
     
  17. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Same situation as .223?

    This may be a case similar to Winchesters .223 production. Cheap WWB is made as cheap WWB from the get go. Over-runs by IMI (M-193 ball specs) are sold under the same banner with a different product code.
     
  18. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    I've never had a single surprise form the valu-pak. I have always thought the 100 round boxes were the same round as the 50 round boxes. I've never noticed a difference. And this is in 3 different guns, 2 XD's and a S&W.

    I can't speak to the longer distance accuracy of the valu-pak, but I've noticed nothing unusual about them so far. I've probably gone through about 2000 of the valu-pak rounds without a single problem, misfire, jam, or whatever other sort of mishap you can have with ammunition.
     
  19. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    No surprises at this end, either.

    I guess I should have mentioned it in my first post. I buy the WWB .45ACP because it's affordable for the volume of shooting I do. I've never had a problem with it. I would estimate about 10,000 rounds since I started using it.
     
  20. jagdpanzer347

    jagdpanzer347 Member

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    Thanks for the replies, fella's. I just got back from WM with two more boxes of 9mm and .40. I am going to measure the brass after I fire it. Not currently reloading, but looking to get back into it in the future. The cost differential would be worth it to me to have better brass.

    -jagd
     
  21. Byron

    Byron Member

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    I went to the range to test ammo. I have a Glock 17.I had both the USA 9MM 115 gr fmj in the 50 round box and VP. I fired at 7,15 and 25 yards. I could not tell any difference in poi or recoil. I fired Remington UMC 115 jhp and US military ball.The UMC was very accurate at all ranges as was the military ball. I have done expansion tests in water on the UMC and it mushroomed well. I have emailed Winchester asking if there is a difference in the white box and VP 9MM and will post if they reply. Byron
     
  22. Byron

    Byron Member

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    I received this from Winchester today.It seems evasive to me. Byron

    Yes!! It is made to the same high standard of quality as all Winchester
    Ammunition products.
     
  23. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Winchester

    They told Byron:

    >Yes!! It is made to the same high standard of quality as all Winchester
    Ammunition products.<
    *******************
    Well...What'd ya expect'em to say?:D
     
  24. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

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    I have shot the 50 round boxes (both hollow,and ball) of Wal-Mart white box, as well as the 100 round value pack. I only shoot .45acp for pistol calibers. I have never noticed a difference between the two in either my Glock, or Kimber. Also I have never had a FTF with either. Remington UMC however is another story :barf: . Maybe Tuners "Super Scientific Evaluation" :neener: shows otherwise, but my thoughts are "if you have to ask the difference is nill".
     
  25. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    re:

    GLockfan...my "Super Scientific Evaluation" was based on chronograph results and measurements taken, and a comparison between the two. Accuracy with any given lot of ammo can range from excellent to so-so all the way to "Why did I waste my money of this stuff."
     
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