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Isn’t that cheating?

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by jptsr1, Jun 7, 2003.

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  1. jptsr1

    jptsr1 Member

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    I don’t mean this in an accusatory tone, but for those of you who have a “special†gun and carry rig for IDPA, does it feel like you are cheating a bit? I'm going to be participating in my first IDPA event soon and ill be shooting my G26 out of a Royal Guard because its as close to how I carry every day as I can get (I actually carry it in a pocket holster or on my ankle). As I'm researching the boards looking for tips and tricks, I see a lot of post referring to “my IDPA rig†or “the gun I use for IDPAâ€. Are you supposed to shoot what you carry or what you can carry?

    J
     
  2. Pat S

    Pat S Member

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    Some approach IDPA as a training exercise with their carry gear. For others it is merely a gun game like IPSC. Both can play the game, just accept the fact that the "gamers" will be posting the best scores. If you approach the stages from a tactical aspect to where the bad guy targets in the stage could shoot back you will be dreadfully slow on most stages, but tactically sound.

    If you're looking for tactical exercises you won't find them in IDPA you'll have to look elsewhere. What you will get is an opportunity to refine your shooting and gun manipulation skills under a slight amount of stress.

    Once you've gotten your gun handling skills up to the level you would like you might look into scenario based tactical exersises. Especially if you carry a gun for self defense. You'll probably have to seek out a training school for these.


    Stay Safe, Pat S
     
  3. jptsr1

    jptsr1 Member

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    Thanks Pat S

    I obviously had the wrong idea about IDPA. I read an article in one of the many gun rags I get and it gave me the impression that IDPA was something different. Still sounds cool to me though so I'm gonna give it a try. Even though I get much better groups with my Sig I think I’m still gonna shoot what I carry. Odds are if it ever hits the fan the G26 is gonna be what I’m working with so the more practice the better.

    J.
     
  4. Delmar

    Delmar Member

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    jptsr1


    Give it a try-it is a lot of fun-sure, there are going to be the occasional whiners, but they get theirs in the end too. Watched a guy literally throw the new mag out of his new Hi-power which kept jamming on him, and a half dozen of us asked him if we should count that as a miss, seeing as how he missed the target! Our group has young and old alike-one elderly gentleman has arthritis so bad that he cannot go double action on his M27 Smith, so he thumb cocks it for every shot. If you are a bad guy-do not let him do this! I have seen him place several shots into the same hole at 25 yards with full house reloads-just takes him a bit longer to do it. He will probably never win a match, but if the the guys who set the scenarios have any decency about them, they will set up something soon to cater to this gentleman's handicap too. Still and all, it is a great feeling to see the smile on his face.
     
  5. another okie

    another okie Member

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    It depends on how big and strong your competitiveness gene is.
    If you want to win really bad, you'll probably shoot a Glock 34.
    If you can handle a slight disadvantage to get some practice in with your carry gun, then shoot your Glock 26. I do a little of both.
     
  6. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    I plan on shooting my 1911, which is the only pistol i have, and would be my carry pistol if i had a ccw.



    I'm wierd, though, and my HD shotgun is also my 3-gun shotgun, my 3 gun rifle is my shtf gun, etc.
     
  7. jdkelly

    jdkelly Member

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    Take from IDPA that which you want.

    jptsr1,

    I guess you can take what you want from IDPA. For me it's a game, if it wasn't they wouldn't keep score. I try to use the equipment I already own (some I can't), but if I have to buy equipment, I get the items that are well suited for the game(s).

    Once I have what I need, I work on those things that will improve my score. Would I like to win, sure. Is that going to happen, no. My enjoyment stems from shooting, improving a bit, and the people involved in the shooting sports.

    Enjoy,

    jdkelly
     
  8. BigG

    BigG Member

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    Most of the *cough* practical *cough* types of sports, including shooting, start off with their hearts in the right place but quickly become exercises in who can bend the rules the most without breaking them. It's human nature. Think of Sammy Soza with the corked "practice" bat. That's practical baseball. Don't get caught seems to be the watchword.

    Why does IPSC have $4,000 rigs that you can't hardly conceal in a briefcase? Because the rules say you can. IDPA is not far behind.
     
  9. faustulus

    faustulus Member

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    Shooting any of the practical sports will make you a better shooter, much better than the people who just sit back at 25 yards. I know I was one of them. But the main reason to play is because it is so much fun. Some people golf, some swim, I shoot. I maintain that IDPA and IPSC are just golf with guns, bullets instead of balls. Try it I think you will be hooked. Usually everyone starts with the gun they carry then maybe move up, if they like it. Here's a secret if you are good with your IPSC race rig, chances are you are good with your carry gun. Is anyone under the impression that because Michael Schumacher drives a formula 1 Ferrari he can't drive a Civic better than 99% of the world?
     
  10. Tim Burke

    Tim Burke Member

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    Some of us compete with one gun, and carry a similar gun. When one of the guns finally breaks something, chances are it's the gun with a lot of rounds through it, not the carry gun.
    Carry gun gets fired for function testing and cleaning periodically. Occasionally I'll shoot a match with a carry gun.
     
  11. mattburkett.com

    mattburkett.com Member

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    "Here's a secret if you are good with your IPSC race rig, chances are you are good with your carry gun."

    Great statement! People that can shoot, can shoot anything. You won't find a highlevel IPSC open shooter that can't shoot a limited or IDPA gun.

    Remember that if there is a clock and a scoresheet, it is a game. Please do not think that IDPA is tactical or can be approached that way. It is a test of shooting skills from concealment under pressure and can be a heck of a lot of fun. It will help develop your shooting skills and your carry equipment if you choose to use it. If you want to develop your "tactical" skills, go to an FOF class and learn what happens when people are actually shooting back.

    Take care,
     
  12. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    I use a full size 1911 for my CCW. So HA! :D

    Seriously though. No game can ever be 100% realistic, but since I can't afford to go to Thunder ranch 12 times a year, and the local police frown upon getting in gunfights for practice, IDPA is the next best thing.

    It is far better practice than informal plinking. There is a level of pressure, and best of all there is no do over and there is no ignoring your bad shots or errors. Formal competition forces you to see your weaknesses.

    If I had to get into a gunfight, and I could choose my opponent from either A. a serious IDPA or IPSC competitor, or B. a regular gun guy/joe plinker. I would pick B every time. :)
     
  13. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    Anything with a timer is a game. It will imensly improve your gun handling though. I shoot a Para p-14 in IDPA and I carry a P-13. Basically the same thing.

    The competitive shooters (Like Matt Burkett) are the best gun handlers around. They can pick up ANYTHING and shoot it well.
     
  14. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    damn. i guess that class i took last week was a game, since they timed us on parts of it.
     
  15. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Member

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    Gee, does that mean that if I'm in a class and to recieve credit i must be there 8 hours or so... That is a game as well??? It's timed... or if I punch in a time clock for work then punch out for lunch or break... That work is a game? (this maybe more true than you think) Being born starts the clock, death stops the clock... Life must be a game...

    I know what you mean, just play'n the devil....:banghead:

    Enjoy...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2003
  16. jptsr1

    jptsr1 Member

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    "Is anyone under the impression that because Michael Schumacher drives a formula 1 Ferrari he can't drive a Civic better than 99% of the world?"


    faustulus-
    No that is not the impression I am under at all. but are you under the impression that if Mr. Schumacher takes the civic you mentioned and adds pro-stock tires, a sport suspension and a nitrous oxide injection system that he would not gain an additional advantage above and beyond what his skill as a driver alone would have provided?

    J.
     
  17. faustulus

    faustulus Member

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    jptsr1

    I am willing to bet that most other drivers could have all that stuff done to a civic and Shuey could have a stock and he would still win.
    My point is skill matters more than equipment. Almost everyone I know thinks IPSC is more of an equipment race. Funny, my friend was winning IPSC matches with his stock taurus, before he bought his SV. Many times people are comparing what the grandmasters are doing, you know when you get to grand master level then worry about it.
    People lose to faster shooters then blame their equipment more times than the equipment cost them a win. Of course there is no rule that says you con't shoot just about anything in IPSC. IDPA on the other hand...
     
  18. BigG

    BigG Member

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    It's very typical for people to try to use equipment to fix problems that should be addressed thru training. That way they don't have to blame themselves. Sensitive egos in these new age guys. :eek: It wasn''t me. It was this :cuss: firearm! Bsides I can't shoot worth a damn with iron sights. Oh yeah, and I HATE recoil. :uhoh:
     
  19. El Rojo

    El Rojo Member

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    I tend to look at it as practice. If I use my Glock 27, 870P , and my M1A at a three gun match, I might be at a disadvantage. I will just see how good I can do with what I have. What I have is all that I got, so no need to worry about anything else. Be good with what you have and be confident in your own skills. For those guys that beat you, make them your friends and not your enemies. :D
     
  20. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    On the flip side of a coin, winning a local match with basic stock equipment is the best feeling in the world. :)

    Whooping the pants off of the cocky guy with a ported 24 inch barrel, 12 shot, red dot sighted 1100 with your stock 18 inch, bead sighted, 6+1, 870 riot gun has got to be the single coolest thing you can do. :D
     
  21. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Member

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    Since I suck, I usually win by watching the Para mags crap up (if my buddies don't have time to clean them between stages), and my buddie's +2 Glock extension blow out from under his magazine (not the manufacturer's fault, it's the wrong caliber, but it fits and he doesn't care since it's just a game)...and hopefully someone will make a bad batch of reloads. Skunky win!

    I'm usually the only guy shooting .308 at 3-gun. Turns out those manly .45 men that tease me for shooting 9mm only shoot .223s :D

    .223 on steel at 100 = dink.
    .308 on steel at 100 = *BING!!*
     
  22. E357

    E357 Member

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    I'm not all that impressed by the "great" IPSC or IDPA shooters especially when they use the tricked-out race guns and "plan-out" just how many steps it takes to get from firing position 1 to position 2, etc. I've always considered a man in a modified weaver or isosceles stance as just a "bigger target". Remember there may actually be two BGs shooting back.

    Most of the guns games I've been to have deteriorated (in my opinion). I guess that's just human nature. We've tried "carry only", "revolver only", "iron sights only", "snubby 100 yards only", "hand cannon only" shoots. The only thing that actually kept most people coming back is when they can score higher. Don't even get me started on the Cowboys matches.

    Elliot
     
  23. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    E357,

    You are kind of hitting 2 points. The "game" of IPSC or IDPA is just that. In order to win you will plan your steps and shots like a golfer or basketball player would. No difference. The guns that are used are designed to be optimal for each set of rules.

    I GUARANTEE that the top shooters can outshoot anyone with ANY gun.

    One of the best USPSA shooters named Dave Sevigny uses a completely stock glock(17 I think in IDPA and 35 in USPSA IIRC). Nothing changed. It is their skill that is impressive. The game has nothing to do with it.
     
  24. jptsr1

    jptsr1 Member

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    WOW! Thanks for all the responses, this thread has been enlightening. I probably should have started it with “aren’t you cheating yourself†instead of “isn’t that cheatingâ€. Frankly I don’t give a rats rear if Joey Sixguns can shoot the privates off a fly at 100yards. My old man has always said “the only reason for a grown man to dwell on the accomplishments of others is so that he might in some way improve himself.â€

    I’m looking for fun, practice and to meet some people who have similar interest (that being firearms). It sounds like all of the games you guys have mentioned will provide what I’m looking for. I’m gonna go to my first IDPA match next weekend at Rivana in Charlottesville just to get a taste. I plan on signing up for one up at the NRA range in Fairfax shortly after that.

    Thanks again Fellas

    J.
     
  25. Navy joe

    Navy joe Member

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    Agreed, it's cheating yourself of life experience, not the game. I shot another club level IDPA last night. The club usually does not mandate a cover garment for non-classifier matches. One other person wore cover as prep for heading off to some big matches.

    My match prep started at home. I almost put on running shoes, but then I stopped myself and put on the leather dress shoes I had been wearing. I got to the range and downloaded my G17 at the car then went inside. I replaced the very hi-cap mags of GDHP in my carrier with 10rds of range ammo and them went and shot. I purposefully did not walk through the one stage that had room clearing and blind targets from the start position.

    All in all I got a good look at my walked in off the street carry methods. I even shot ok considering it was my second IDPA match and I hung 9 penalty points on one stage for thinking about those goofy reloads and forgetting to do all that silly strong/ weak hand only strings. :rolleyes: oops...

    I don't know what to think of my draw. From concealment I put a centered hit on a 12yd target in 2.09. I was conscious of a pause looking fer that front sight.

    I did see many others shooting their carry stuff too, but there are plenty with IDPA only guns and loads.

    The really good ones would impress you with a 5 shot snubbie. That racegun did not jump out of a magic lake or get pulled from a stone and bestow some magical shooting ability on them. They practice :what: and they are good.

    The stances. First off, most everyone will assume some sort of modified isosceles under stress. Second it is very fast, stable and natural pointing. You cannot shoot at that bigger target if you were shot already by the fast fella using it. Second, a bladed stance offers plenty of vitals in it's own right and is really less than ideal if in body armor. Third, who needs a stance when you are running for cover?

    Edit: Just to corrupt the new guy. http://vamdsection.org/ IPSC near you at NVPS, Black Creek, Fredricksburg, North Mountain etc... Also check out the IDPA at Cavalier and Black Creek.
     
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