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Israeli Military Surplus Ammo

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by The Hat, Oct 14, 2009.

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  1. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    I bought a 1000 rds. of this in 45acp hardball with the head stamp TZZ. The recoil is beating the crap out of my Colt MKIV series 70. I put in a heavier recoil spring that I've had so long I don't remember what the lb. rating is. The spring has 30 coils and is .047 dia.. Anyway it does not help much, empty brass everywhere and the recoil is not much fun.
    Has anyone shot TZZ ammo before that could recommend a good spring rate for these heavy loads? Thanks
     
  2. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

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    I can't recommend a spring weight for you, but the TZZ .45 acp ammunition was used by our military for years in the stock 1911's. IMI won several ammunition contracts for U.S. military training ammunition. It was the only .45 acp ammunition I saw when visiting the ranges at the China Lake Naval Weapons Center in the early 1990's.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
     
  3. nathan

    nathan Member

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    Thats probably hot ammo for the SMG ?
     
  4. rondog

    rondog Member

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    Meh, eat some Wheaties. Recoil makes ya tough!

    Or, just buy a new Wolff spring that's a little heavier. They're cheap. www.gunsprings.com Standard is 16lbs., they go all the way to 28lbs.

    RECOIL SPRINGS
    Recoil springs for Colt 1911 series pistols are available in both conventional and variable power designs. Please refer to our FAQ section for information on conventional vs. variable design. Each Wolff recoil spring for Colt pistols includes an extra power firing pin spring. Recoil Calibration Paks are available offering a range of spring weights to tune your pistols recoil function. All springs are produced from Wolff proprietary HTCS spring material except as noted.


    For use in:
    Colt 1911, 1911A1, 1991, Government, MKIV and Gold Cup models
    Please see other caliber notes below


    Conventional 1911 Recoil Springs - .45 ACP

    Reduced Power...: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 Lb.
    Factory Standard.: 16 Lb.
    Extra Power........: 17, 18.5, 20, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28 Lb.
    Stock No. 419xx......$ 7.89 ea
    Please Note: Replace the "xx" in the stock number with the pound rating of spring.


    Conventional 1911 Recoil Springs - .45 ACP - Chrome Silicone Material
    The 3 most popular 1911 recoil springs are now available in chrome silicone material. While Chrome silicone is and excellent material, it is a softer material and does not offer the tensile strength of our proprietary HTCS spring material - the material most of our springs are produced from. We now offer these springs due to customer requests.

    Reduced Power...: 14 Lb.

    Factory Standard.: 16 Lb.

    Extra Power........: 18.5 Lb.

    Stock No. 527xx......$ 7.69 ea
    Please Note: Replace the "xx" in the stock number with the pound rating of spring




    Variable Power 1911 Recoil Springs - .45 ACP

    Reduced Power...: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 Lb.
    Factory Standard: 16.5 Lb.
    Extra Power.....: 17.5, 18.5, 20, 22 Lb.
    Stock No. 424xx ......$ 7.89 ea
    Please Note: Replace the "xx" in the stock number with the pound rating of spring.



    COLT 1911
    FACTORY RECOIL SPRING NOTES

    1. Factory rating for super .38 & 9mm is 14 Lbs.
    2. Factory rating in .40 S&W is 19 Lbs.
    3. Factory rating for the Colt .38 Spl. Midrange is 14 Lbs.
    4. Factory rating for the Colt Ace .22 conversion is 14 Lbs,

    When ordering recoil springs for these caliber's, please take these differences into account.
     
  5. rino451

    rino451 Member

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    Be careful with the Isi ammo. I believe that Nathan is correct - there is HOT smg only surplus ammo out there.
     
  6. BushyGuy

    BushyGuy Member

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    at the end of the world..
    only the black tipped IMI ammo is "hot stuff" that you need to be careful with in some guns. i have a box of 9mm IMI UZI 115 gr fmj that is not black tipped it shoots fine in my PT92C but it kicks a little harder then the WWB ammo.
     
  7. gglass

    gglass Member

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    I would love to know where you got this TZZ ammo. I cannot find .45 ACP anywhere... At least not the affordable stuff.
     
  8. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    There is NO SUCH THING as hot Israeli .45ACP SMG ammo.
     
  9. tju1973

    tju1973 Member

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    I remember a few years ago there was some Israeli surplus out that was not actual "use ammo" -- I think it was 9mm Proofing ammo-- which guns can handle onsey, twosey-- but can (and probably will) cause catastrophic issues if fired constantly or even regularly. I would make sure this isn't the case with your .45 ammo...
     
  10. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Emeritus

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    Actually, I'd check the mainspring for the hammer - while your not getting ignition problems, that spring may have weakened over the years. It does make a difference. It may be that a weak mainspring is generating that "little bit extra recoil" that your feeling when you shoot.
     
  11. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    Thanks everyone for your input.

    rondog: Good info. I'm looking into the recoil calibration pak.

    gglass: I bought the ammo a year ago last month. Got it here------ http://www.rguns.net/
     
  12. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    What ReloaderFred said -- the majority of the 45 ACP ammo I was issued from 2004-08 was older Israeli stuff with the TZZ headstamp (most of it dated from the late 80s and the 90s, if I remember right), with some US manufactured stuff in the inventory.

    The TZZ didn't seem to run any hotter than the US manufactured 230 grain FMJ ball.
     
  13. Magichelmt

    Magichelmt Member

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    I bought some of the same stuff back then as well. Of the 200 rounds I have shot so far I have found 3 rounds with flaws in the cases. One had a bulge in the case and would not chamber. The other two had lap seems down the side of the shell. They look like a zipper down the side. I just tossed those. I look at all the cases as I pull them from the bags. I have not had a problem with recoil with any of mine. I wish they had more. I should have bought more.....
     
  14. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    I can tell you the cases reload nicely...
     
  15. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    The thing that always bugged me about the TZZ cases is they have a very small flash hole and will occasionally pull the depriming pin out of my RCBS decapping die stem on the initial depriming.
     
  16. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    Thanks again guys.

    HorseSoldier: The TZZ ammo is all stamped 85. Must be same stuff you have fired before. Recoil seem stiff to me because all I've shot in the gun are mild lead reloads.
    But this is not so much about me and recoil, it was about my pistol.
    I think full loads of ball ammo is to much for a stock 16lb recoil spring. That's why I posted.
     
  17. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    These were in the mix of the TZZ ammo. There are some IMI also but not much. These two bullets could be either one of the two Mfg.

    The one with the little nub on the end of it, there were 3 of them. And of the other there were 172.

    Does anyone know what there purpose was?
     

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  18. Beagle-zebub

    Beagle-zebub Member

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    What were you being issued .45 ACP ammunition for?
     
  19. agtman

    agtman Member

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    Geez oh Pete ... :rolleyes:

    Do some push-ups. I've shot this stuff and it's not that hot, not even close to a mid-range 10mm 180gn load.

    Yeah, it may be somewhat hotter than the classic U.S. .45acp "old school" 230gn ball ammo @ 850fps, but you should be able to survive a weekly range visit shooting it. :scrutiny: Both you and the 1911 should be fine. If you feel it's needed, just up the poundage a bit on the recoil spring ...

    :cool:
     
  20. strangelittleman

    strangelittleman Member

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    Yes the TZZ headstamp was US issue. At the school I taught at in the Corps, in the early '90's, the Israeli TZZ headstamp was all we used. It is hotter than std ball, it's running approx 950 fps and has a 230 gr projectile. if you're worried about your series 70, just put in an 18.5# spring, it'll hold up just fine.
    My issue pistol was an Ithaca, and it held up well for thousands of rounds w/ just std GI 16# springs, never had a problem with this ammo in my students weapons nor in mine.
    Good find on the case of TZZ, it's very accurate ammo, sealed primers too.
    However, if I remember correctly, the primer pockets are crimped, like many other mil.spec ammo, should you reload, you'll need to ream the primer pocket out after depriming.
     
  21. Sheldon

    Sheldon Member

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    The bullet with the little bit of lead at the tip.......is it a soft point with just some extra lead that didn't get knocked off?? The other bullet is their version of a semi-wad cutter bullet. The nose profile more simulated a round nose, but the sharper shoulder on the bullet would cut a nicer hole in the target.
     
  22. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    strangelittleman: Thanks for the info. Now I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with.
     
  23. The Hat

    The Hat Member

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    Sheldon: I have not fired any of the strange looking wad cutters yet. Should be interesting too.
     
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