Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

ITAR dont protect you and kill us.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by frenchbushmaster, Jan 22, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. frenchbushmaster

    frenchbushmaster Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    50 km of Paris (France)
    Hello friends,

    I was not on THR since 2 months.
    Because I was very busy.
    Busy by one of your law.
    A strange law.
    A law for protect you (bull****!).
    Protect you of all the European and friend country shooters.
    A law for forbid to your American company manufacturing weapon parts, hand guard, grip, scope, dot sight, mount, etc… to sell over seas. During an economical crisis I let you appreciate.

    I want just by this message than every American shooter knows that actually, your frontiers are closed and your government stop to sell weapons equipment to every country in the world. Not only your enemy or country ban by the patriot act but ALL the country.

    Who could believe than because I cant buy and EOTECH, an ARMS mount, a M.I. handguard, a Mk4 Leupold scope, a magpul grip etc…
    America is protected!? WHO is a liar!

    My voice here is the voice of all the European shooter (German, British, Italian, Spanish, French, Switzerland, Belgian, etc..)
    WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY !
    We are fed up of this American government attitude against us 

    We could not buy you product.
    We are considering like integrist terrorists countrys.
    Your company could not take advantage of exchange rate Euro/dollars very interesting for us.
    You are not better protect because I can’t believe AL KAIDA buy American parts on a gun broker website for equipped her fanatic. It’s simply stupid!

    Warning my friends.
    Paranoïa is driving some of your leader.
    Today the enemy is over seas.
    Tomorrow the enemy will be inside.
    And your possibility to buy any gun freely will be in danger.
    Civilian shooters like you, we have many problem with our authority for try to survive and get our sport live.
    If our American friend let us fall.
    It’s not only us in Europe who lost.
    It’s the world of shooter who is assail.

    Lady’s and Gentlemen.
    This is the voice of a poor European customer.
    The voice of a friend punished for a wrong reason.
    We could not benefit of American market and like many other shooters, I’m frightening for the future.

    We hope here in Europe the Americans companies will react. We are probably a small parts of there market. But we exist. And we want live.
    I hope NRA too will do something for explain the authority shoot on the wrong target for fight against terrorism.

    We hope the support of all the americans shooters.
    A quieten futur for every body.

    Friendly, Mick.
     
  2. evan price

    evan price Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    5,476
    Location:
    http://www.ohioccw.org/ Ohio's best CCW resour
    C'est la position du Gouvernement Américain que la matière considérée critique aux efforts militaires américains n'est pas disponible pour la vente à l'extérieur des frontières.
    Je suis sûr qu'il y a beaucoup de sociétés dans l'UE qui peut fournir des produits semblables qui ne seraient pas attachés par ces conditions.
    HK et Leupold sont l'allemand; Peut-être au lieu de condamner les politiques des Etats-Unis vous passez cet effort enquêtant sur les sources alternantes pour réaliser vos désirs.
    Meurtre heureux.
     
  3. U.S.SFC_RET

    U.S.SFC_RET Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,740
    Location:
    The Old Dominion State
    Mon Frère je n'oublierai jamais que cet ait été France qui est venue nous aider dans la guerre d'independance. Je déteste notre politique de politique étrangère. J'ai vu et ne peux pas échanger même avec mon propre dollar m'avec Europe ! Par nos Banques ! J'écris ceci par le traducteur.

    My brother I will never forget that it was France who helped win our freedom as a country from the war of independance. I don't like our politics abroad because I cannot even personally engage in trade with europe.
     
  4. frenchbushmaster

    frenchbushmaster Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    50 km of Paris (France)
    EVAN :
    I agree with you EVAN, we could buy AIMPONT (norway), Schmitt & Bender, Zeiss, TDI, etc..
    But for some parts you are alone. Exemple, the ARMS mount, GG&G and La rue.
    Nobody produced the same fast attachment mount any where. Only American company.
    And for the parts, the price in USA is usualy 50% less expensive than an european price.
    Exemple a Schmitt & bender sniper top level scope is 3000 euros (approximatly 4350$ compare with the same lavel LEUPOLD scope for 1200$):scrutiny:
    Are you sure LEUPOLD is german ?? "America's optics authority" is the sub title of there name, no ?

    U.S.SFC_RET : We know this my friend and we know it's a simple questioàn of politic and a mistake (I hope). But we must report this mistake to every body for change it.

    See you, Mick.
     
  5. Working Man

    Working Man Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,553
    Location:
    DFW Tx
    Rough translation.....


    It is the position of the American Government which the matter considered critical with the American military efforts is not available for the sale outside the borders. I am sure that there are many companies in the EU which can provide similar products which would not be attached by these conditions. HK and Leupold are German; Perhaps instead of condemning the policies of the United States you pass this effort inquiring into the alternating sources to carry out your desires. Happy murder.


    Brough to you by..... http://babelfish.altavista.com/
     
  6. frenchbushmaster

    frenchbushmaster Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    93
    Location:
    50 km of Paris (France)
    Thank's working man,

    The translator is sometime not clear, It's excellent with the original version.;)

    It's clear the actual effort in war is important.
    But I cant believe it's for some reasons.

    I give you two exemples for explain my point of view my friends.

    I could not buy an AR15 LMT SOPMOD MIL-SPEC STOCK. O.K. It's military used and capacity of production are request for the war effort. I agree.
    But 2 point :
    A) Explain me why you civilian americans shooter, you could buy it ?
    B) Why I could not buy the Commercial version No MIL-SPEC not used buy military ?

    I could buy any LEUPOLD scope if it's a scope for hunting or sport (Impossible to build a M24 or M40 replica with Mk4 scope:banghead:).
    But In this scope range.
    Explain me why the MIL-DOT Reticle is forbiden to exportation for the hunting and sport scope not used by military sniper !????
    Why a company like "OPTIC PLANET" is so frighten by the risk of penalty, it say "we stop sell over seas any think". Too dangerous:(

    I think this law had been decided for good reason (I hope).
    But not as clearly define and application is so complex and not clear than Dealer, manufacturer and customer are mislaid in a labyrinth.

    A law not clear is never good for nobody.

    Since the ITAR is apply one different european forum user of american rifle are pull s.o.'s legs by AK or SIG or H&K shooter. We are the looser with american rifles :fire::cuss::banghead::(
    It's a bit unpleasant but usualy it's friendly joke. AK rifle shooter never forget to beat AR shooter !! AH AH AH !!:D

    See you, Mick.
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,550
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    It's entirely possible that the manufacturers of said goods aren't licensed to export, and...because the market potential for overseas parts orders is small...not worth the expense and the hassle. They're not in the business of fair and equitable distribution of their products. They're in it to make a living.

    We sympathize with your plight, but we're not responsible for the situation, and we're under no moral obligation to rectify it...so please don't try to make this our fault. We've had quite enough of that in recent history, and we have problems of our own in the firearms trade.
     
  8. TherealMordis

    TherealMordis Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    14
    FrenchBushmaster, this may seem ignorant, but I didnt think Europe had that many active shooters. I thought, purchasing guns in that part of the world was a impossability for the common man. It sounds like i have been sorely misinformed.
     
  9. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,083
    Location:
    Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
    Leupold=>Beaverton, Oregon, USA.

    Beaucoup d'Americains pesent que Leupold est Allemand, juste comme ils pesent que de pistolas de Kahr sont Allemand.

    I apologize for my French. It has been too long.
     
  10. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,291
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    Ditto what Tuner said. We're trying to keep the free flow of firearms and equipment going on our own side of the pond.

    Also on the export license not being a good investment for a lot of companies. Due to the laws passed in your country and most other european nations, the market is too small to justify the cost.

    And also the point about making it our individual faults. Can I, by the same rational, make it your fault that the vast majority of french people I met in both Paris and Marsailles were rude, arrogant and socially backward? Or that your government actively supplied our current enemy with technology and equpment? I'll try to take you on your own merits and expect the same of you.

    The larger point is this: If there was much of a market, why doesn't a french company step up and make a similar or licensed copy? You've got the industry, I've been to France and know it's by no means lacking in industry.
     
  11. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,232
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    And if a U.S. company messes up on an export there is a big penalty. This one was $11,000 for 12 scopes. John

    www.bis.doc.gov/news/2002/sturm_ruger.htm

    "Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Export Enforcement Michael J. Garcia today announced that Sturm, Ruger and Company, Inc., of Southport, Conn., has agreed to pay a civil penalty of $11,000 to settle an allegation that it exported rifle scopes to Oman without the required license. A license is required to export the rifle scopes to most destinations in order to ensure that the scopes will not be used to violate human rights.

    The Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS) had alleged that Sturm, Ruger had sent a shipment of 12 rifle scopes from the United States to Oman without obtaining the required export license from BIS. The $11,000 penalty is the maximum authorized for that charge.

    BIS administers and enforces export and reexport controls for reasons of national security, foreign policy, nonproliferation, antiterrorism, and short supply. Criminal penalties and administrative sanctions can be imposed for violations of the Export Administration Regulations.

    Assistant Secretary Garcia commended Special Agent William Higgins of the Office of Export Enforcement's Boston field office for his investigation of this case."
     
  12. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,928
    Location:
    Georgetown, TX
    The export requirements for "War Materials" are stringent.

    Already the US gets hammered for selling armaments overseas. if the floodgates were opened so that any company could sell anything they wanted overseas, the UN would have a fit, what with all those well armed freedom fighters...
     
  13. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,465
    Location:
    Morgan County, Alabama
    With respects, the enemy has already been here, done that. Remember 9/11? The trade towers being hit ... burning ... people jumping to their deaths rather than being burned alive? .... the towers collapsing .... The Pentagon being hit ....
    Now, THAT'S enough to make anyone "paranoid.":scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny:
    The F.B.I. believes there are Al-Qaeda cells still intact inside America.
    Me? I don't know.
    But I do think this war is a very serious war, and the jihadis pose a serious threat to our freedoms (yours too, by the way).

    I'm not trying to "defend" our treatment of European Shooters, or how we deal with exports of shooting equipment. We have enough problems with our own government inside our borders trying to take what we have, or preventing us from getting new stuff. Yeah, it's crazy.
    Do you feel insulted by the way the U.S. Government treats you???
    Hey, Frenchbushmaster, I feel insulted by the way my own government treats me!!!!! Buddy, I feel your pain.
     
  14. DrewH

    DrewH Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2003
    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Virginia
    Well, I think the expansion of rules and regs on on firearms exports, and especially firearms acessories, that have been put in place since September 11 are pretty terrible, so I feel your pain. Sadly, its unlikely to change anytime soon. Executive agencies have very broad discretion over defining "munitons" for exports (and imports for that matter) and there is very little constituency for change-most of our energy goes to fighting domestic restrictions.
     
  15. mekender

    mekender Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,255
    there are similar laws preventing the export of specific high tech items too... sony was hit with a huge fine for selling PS/2s to the middle east a few years ago... why? because with some basic computer programming skills and a decent video camera, the graphics processor could be used for terrain mapping and guidance of missiles...

    im quite sure that a lot of goods would become more available in europe if certain european countries would stop selling weapons, nuclear technologies and other sensitive items to nations that support terrorism... after all it was the french that built the iraqi nuclear reactor back in the 1980s... and it was also france, germany and russia that were benefiting hugely from the Oil for Food scam that was stealing millions of dollars from poor iraqi people...

    france thankfully has taken some good steps in electing sarkozy...
     
  16. feedthehogs

    feedthehogs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,801
    Could be we're a tad bit tired of exporting arms and stuff to other countries and some where down the road when we part company, they get used against us.

    Na that can't be it. That would take common sense.
     
  17. akodo

    akodo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    2,778
    look, I can understand that it totally sucks.

    However it isn't our leaders so much as a small minority of busy-bodies who henpeck them into doing things. We have "the million mom march" which is really about 50 menopausal women and 5 quasi-celebrities screaming at them all the time. Many groups talk about easy american guns going to terrorists. Yes, such terrorists can just come and visit and buy and smuggle it across, or buy on gunbroker, whatever. However, if our companies sent it to them, the people mad at the guns and armtrade scream even louder.

    And it cuts both ways. Clinton got Russia to agree not to send any firearms to the USA. Now, a mass murderer who gets ahold of a yugoslavian SKS isnt any more or less dangerous than one with a Russian one, it's all about appeasing special interest groups and chipping away at rights, regardless of which direciton it is going.

    Also, normally if your country requests that things be changed, they will. I.E. if we could get George W Bush to ask about selling us Bakial Makarovs again, I am sure the Russians would. However, he won't ask. I am sure if your President asked W about being able to import Leupold scopes, changes would be made, but your president won't do that either
     
  18. atek3

    atek3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    3,024
    Location:
    SW CT
    if I was european, I'd look at it as an opportunity... strike up a deal with larue, GG&G, and Magpul to become the sole licensed producer in the EU. Surely the EU as a whole is a big enough market to be profitable.
     
  19. Working Man

    Working Man Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,553
    Location:
    DFW Tx
    Frenchbushmaster, what is the proper translation of "Meurtre heureux"?
     
  20. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    9,037
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO, USA.
    And another reason US shooters should hate the ITAR is because it imposes a $1750 per year fee on all FFLs licensed to do manufacturing.
     
  21. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    Feedthehogs, we're busy buying millions of dollars worth of equipment VASTLY MORE LETHAL than anything our French friend wants and giving it to some of the nastiest, meanest folks in the middle east and central asia.

    Our export laws are idiotic, just admit it. And our DOD and State Departments are headed by some of the most short-sighted, odious reptiles ever to crawl across the surface of the Earth. Sadly they won't be the ones to die when our "allies" decide the winds have changed and start attacking us.

    Why, in the midst of this madness, we should quibble about selling high end sporting firearms and parts to European shooters is beyond the grasp of any sane man.
     
  22. evan price

    evan price Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    5,476
    Location:
    http://www.ohioccw.org/ Ohio's best CCW resour
    If my 8 years of french 20 years ago was correct it means "Keep shooting".

    Obviously your English is better than my Francais.

    Re: Leupold: I was thinking of Kaps but for some reason fixated upon Leupold.

    What is unfortunate in this situation is that the definition of "mil-spec" is broad enough that no manufacturer wants to risk a massive fine and loss of business to want to get into an argument over wether or not "mil-styled" is actually different than "mil-spec".

    I seriously doubt that export of a GG&G buis or quick-mount will in any way negatively affect the war effort. But the US Government is not in the business of making sense sometimes.
     
  23. iiibdsiil

    iiibdsiil Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    910 / 813 / 561
    Can't you get an American to just purchase it and ship it to you? I'm confused here...
     
  24. takhtakaal

    takhtakaal Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    855
    All of this makes me wonder when it will be that we can't buy them here, either.

    Stock up, fellas.
     
  25. joffe

    joffe Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    177
    Location:
    Europe
    No, it's a law against exporting.

    I know we can get LaRue stuff here, we have one importer for them, I don't know about the rest, though. The market is nothing like in the U.S. either, so unless someone on this side of the pond wants to import it and sell it on their own accord I doubt any U.S. manufacturers would be interested in the hassle of selling over here. The government pretty much kills the market and the gun community with their sporting use, activity and club membership requirements.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page