ITAR dont protect you and kill us.

[frenchbushmaster]

My Friends,

One very important point before all.
I never want insult any American friend.
I respect every body.
You my friends, and the American government.
And I respect the law.

I agree when you say the enemy of freedom exists and are every where.
I hope you know that terrorism exist for French peoples since many many years with the Palestinian attempt in Jew district of Paris or the attempts in the subway.
Do not think you are alone to suffer of this plague. We are in "VIGIE PIRATE" level of control for terrorism with military patrol in airport, subway, commercial center since 11/2001.
We live with the terrorism. Every day something remember us we could be victim of it.
We are in the same team.

I agree that it's not something very important and nobody will die because we (European shooter) could not buy American guns parts product in Europe. But It’s strange for me.
Because the reason give to us are not good.
It’s exactly like if tomorrow one of your politicians used the patriot act for explain you that like enemy are probably inside, it’s dangerous to let the weapons free access for civilian. Think to this my friends. Because it’s exactly the base of the reason why we have no possibility to import your parts.
I don’t do politic O.K., It’s just the explanation we received more or less clearly.
I just give you the information for you know what happen one the civilian shooter market with the American product.
For me it’s a beat frightening.

I will explain different point with my actual experience.
I try to live with the ITAR and import parts since 2 months know.
So I could say I try a lot of possible ways for import officially parts.

The 1750$ exportation license is absolutely not the problem.
Clearly, me and some friends with gun shop in France, Belgium or Switzerland are ready and proposed to some American dealer friends to pay the license for the exportation.
The problem is not a question of money.

When we say we pay, the US Govt. Authority ask us to send proof we are military or police service with official French State authorization for an official order. For be more clear their want simply an order from a ministry.
Result : If you are a civilian, it impossible to buy any parts.
Simple shooters like professional gunsmith.
Actually some specialist of AR15 (LIKE ESP) stop sell part for try to assure the order of complet weapons in stock.

Last joke for one of my friend successfully obtain papers for importation from European authority.
It’s a professional European dealer.
He obtains all the data and paper required.
When he send it to USA, he received this answer :
“Sorry, official French authority document are not in English, we could not work with document not in english. Please translat it by an official service of the French government for we accept this documents “
AH AH AH !! Realy funny !

I’m not angry when I explain you all these.
It’s like a joke for us now here to speak of ITAR. A bad joke.
We begin to live without Americans suppliers. And it’s not easy (Be sure it’s a compliment for your company).
It’s just for explain you, when we received the first message of US Dealer and company we don’t understand and after we try to found a solution.
Every efforts for declare us and respect the rules are refused.
We are not bad guys, we just want freely buy parts we buy since many years like some month ago. In the respect of the war effort, I promise you.

I actually try to be considering by the US authority like the European representative of an American dealer (Leupold, GG&G, M.I., MAGPUL, etc…)
It’s my last hope.

A little history again for fun.
Many shooters here are cop’s, soldier, etc..
Many of them buy there own equipment themselves. The French army is an army administer like a simple office service. You could use only the official equipment (and it’s not realy fun). But many of our guys are fighting with you in Afghanistan and appreciate EOTECH, ACOG, etc…
Know their could not buy any of these before to go
I see I guy buy a used EOTECH 551 to a friend at the shooting range because he could not order an ACOG. And this soldier is actually in Afghanistan.

For conclude I want just say you were surprised by this law in Europe.
We respect this law.
But we try to understand why. It’s the reason of my message. Just want know if American shooter know this law and the reason of it.
We have received it like a bad think because nobody explain us and the explanation of the dealer are not clear.
An important point about this law is the duration.
Is it for ever, or like your problem with the high cap magasin limited to 10 shoots and know liberate like in the past (if I don’t have wrong datas).
If we know it’s a particular moment for support the war effort, we say O.K. We could understand this.

We just need to know why. And why so severely.
We love American product. It’s a pleasure to used you product.
Your companies are the best. It’s normal we want buy the best

The translation in english for "meutre heureux" is "happy murder". I dont understand for to be honest

No, an American friend could not send us parts, that true.
But, not completly.
You could try to received some little parts like pin, spring and other small parts for maintenance. I have a friend who do this for me and my friends. We have a limit of course. The price of the order must not be over 100$. It's the rule of the ITAR.
So we order many little parts for our AR and other 1911 run without problem inthe futur. One order every month for be discreet. We respect the law but like nothing is clear.

Thanks for your explanations and the discussion.
Your point of view is important for us here.
It's very interesting.

See you, Mick.

 

[Zak Smith]

The 1750$ exportation license is absolutely not the problem.

This is required even if you don't ever want to export anything.

 

[koginam]

Zak Smith
Maybe I missed something when I read ITAR but I only saw that a manufacture was required to register if they engage in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services.
On the ATF web site http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter11.pdf covers the ATF rules concerning ITAR, the chapter name by which they start this page should say it all CHAPTER 11. EXPORTATION OF NFA FIREARMS.

Also in CHAPTER I--DEPARTMENT OF STATE
SUBCHAPTER M--INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC IN ARMS REGULATIONS
PART 120--PURPOSE AND DEFINITIONS
http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/consolidated_itar.htm

§*120.3***Policy on designating and determining defense articles and services.
An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see §120.6) or defense service (see §120.9) if it:
(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and
(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and
(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or (b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.
The intended use of the article or service after its export ( i.e. , for a military or civilian purpose) is not relevant in determining whether the article or service is subject to the controls of this subchapter. Any item covered by the U.S. Munitions List must be within the categories of the U.S. Munitions List. The scope of the U.S. Munitions List shall be changed only by amendments made pursuant to section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778).
(emphases mine)
most type 7 manufactures meet the high lighted section and they would not be affected by the rule. For the most part if you don't import or export I believe you could get a waiver.

To my friend frenchbushmaster this law sucks very much and I think it will be amended to some extent but if the Democrats gain the presidency and keep control of Congress it may get worse, I wish you luck, I will do my part by voting.

 

[frenchbushmaster]

Thanks KOGINAM.

The text you found is exactly the reason why we could not buy.
The text is clear.
We are civilians and we dont need this military equipment :banghead:

I hope like you this law will be amended.
See you, Mick.

 

[TheLaxPlayer]

This is very odd indeed. I work at a company which makes certain equipment for the government and as far as our stuff goes with ITAR, anything that is commercially available isn't controlled. Only products made exclusively for the government are controlled by ITAR.

 

[doc2rn]

A lot of this has to do with the Patent on a product. We often overlook this simple thing, but if it is only Patented here in the US and not the EU we can not legally ship abroad. What he needs to do is puchase through an FFL who is willing to ship to Frenchb's favorite FFL dealer.

 

[suemarkp]

I think the other part of the "or" statement above is the problem: "(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary."

Take a S&W Revolver, coat it for Navy Seal operations, and now you have something that applies. A component of something that applies is covered too (the original commercial revolver or any of its parts). How is a company supposed to know when some product has been modified for military applications? The munitions list is huge.

The company I work for is very paranoid about export laws and has had huge fines levied multiple times against it (and so have most defense contractors). There was even a ruckus about the commercial 737's sold to China because the gyro's in them could easily be modified to guide a crusie missile.

If you do try and get an export license, certain countries are easier than others. Unfortunately, France seems to have a lot of industrial spies, so our Security people don't like them. But even teaming with friendlies (NATO partners who are subcontractors on defense contracts) is risky because of the possibility of passing something that wasn't listed on the export license (or is a grey area of covered or not). We have whole staffs of people whose job it is to transfer things to foreign nationals, verify export authority, and save us from fines in the millions of dollars.

 

[frenchbushmaster]

I agree with your surprise.
I'm sure this law is too general and had been signed too fast.
You have a precise list of Country ban. It's clear than apply a complet embargo is normal.
But Allied country ???

Suemarkp :
I must say you I agree spy is a bad custom between occidental company (and other).
It's unpleasant, I understand every body try to protect their intersets.

But I must confess than for the small arms equipment our company had desapeard since a long time.
I dont know if you know that the actual FAMAS is not produced in France.
We live with the stock.
And we buy our barrel in Italy for maintenance of the exhausted rifles reparation.:banghead:

My dont produces any scope for rifle. No more scope mount or any other accesory like lamp, laser, rail mount, etc...

We are not dangerous we depend completly of external provider. It's creasy when I remember our history in armament

Be sure it's not a problem of copy of ARMS mount for exemple or Leupold MIL-DOT scope or EOTECH holographic sight. We are not one these market and nobody are interested except customers of course


See you, Mick.

 

[silverlance]

Frenchbushy,

I sympathize. But we are having problems also. Here in California, which is a state of the United States, we cannot buy:

1. any semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip
2. any magazines with capacity over 10
3. any handgun not on a very special list. the list is very small and specific. for example, the SIG P232 Stainless Steel is on the list. The SIG P232 Blue is not on the list.
4. to get on that very special list, the manufacturer has to pay:
- $3500 to test the gun
- $1000 for ammunition
- $1500 to pay the testing official
- and don't forget the $1750 tax for manufacturing, and the many other fees that come with designing, testing, building, and revising a gun.

and the gun STILL may not be approved!!

Our company is one of those manufacturers. We make FAL rifles and 1911 handguns. We are having hard times, because many people in our government want us to shut down our business. They can do this by banning our products, or by making them so expensive that no one can afford them.

Do you know how much it costs to make an AK rifle?
Do you know how a company has to sell it for to make it profitable here in the US?

I have a suggestion. I say this only because I believe that the more gun owners there are in the world (law obeying gun owners) then the better the gun culture will be. How about you hire some swiss engineers, german metalworkers, and swedish gunsmiths - and create your own company?

 

[frenchbushmaster]

WOW !!

It's realy incredible Silverlance.
Realy sad to read something so ..... I dont find the word !!
It's a realy deceitful way to kill the gun market. GGGRRRRR

I agree with you.
And many people think that if the ITAR is a law definitly apply for long long time, some persons (artisan not company) could beguin to produced "copy" of american system like the asian company do since a long time for airsoft equipment.

Like the ITAR is not only for the Weapons and parts for upgrade the weapons but for all the equipment with an NSN number many gear are forbidden too.
We try to found many other company like J-TECH in Asia.
It's the official provider of many military group or police service in asia.
So we will buy our equipment in asia know.
The quality is realy good and the price very low.

Chineses master of the world of tomorrow
I have a Norinco rifle and many people have good point of view about new chinese weapon product. They had a very big and beautiful show-room during the MILIPOL SHOW. Show for professional (Police / Military).
A picture for illustrate :


I sympathize with every peoples in any countrys where laws are not just and do not warranty the freedom of the civilian.
Republic and democracy had been create for liberate peoples, not limit they freedom.

Friendly.
See you, Mick.

 

[esq_stu]

All of this makes me wonder when it will be that we can't buy them here, either.

The ITAR rules cover much more than small arms. They include classified data, satellites, ICBM/rocket components. The State Dept decides what is considered a "defense article" subject to restrictions.

We usually hear from NRA, etc. about proposed rules affecting our rights. But as this is an export rule, it most likely slipped under the radar. I say this because the definition of "defense articles" should not include the items discussed here:

22 CFR Sec. 123

An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see § 120.6) or defense service (see § 120.9) if it:

(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and

(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and

(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or

(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.

If it was issued like other Federal rules, the State Dept would probably have published the restrictions on small arms parts, scopes, etc. along with the ICBMs and secret data and nobody from the shooting public commented. It would not be the first time the feds did something dumb after nobody noticed their plans. I seriously doubt the State Dept was thinking about shooters in Europe being inconvenienced when they wrote the rules, so I don't think Europeans should be offended.

If it's important enough to people, State should be petitioned for an amendment to the rules.

Here's a partial list of what's restricted:

CATEGORY I - FIREARMS
*(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to
caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such
firearms. (See Sec. 121.9 and Sec.23.16-123.19.)
(b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and
specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm
silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.
*(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons
having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons
systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts
therefor.
(d) Technical data (as defined in Sec. 120.21) and defense
services (as defined in Sec. 120.8) directly related to the defense
articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category.
(See Sec. 125.4 for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to
the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated
elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant
Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

Obviously, State got no objections from the European governments. Otherwise the restrictions would not be nearly so broad.

 

[frenchbushmaster]

Absolutly esq_stu.
We understand know after the first week of disappointment.
We are like you say a sort of "collateral damage" in a large global law.

The petition is a good idea. We do it in France before the vote for president. And they answer us. First time a futur president take in account the shooter voice. This is a great victory for us.
I had this idea to launch the same mouvment against ITAR, but for be efficient I must wrote a test simple, polite for explain the problem and ask an amendment for friends shooter of allied country.
It's possible.
But the problem for me is to contact and mobilize european shooter for send this letter to the good person in USA.
And here is my best problem. Who contact? Where could we send our messages?

If some of you have an idea, thanks a lot to give it to me.

See you, Mick.