jacket separation with semi-jacketed bullets and light loads

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by tightgroup tiger, May 16, 2020.

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  1. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/copper-jacket-remained-in-barrel-in-357-mag.566071/

    I'm resurrecting an old post from this forum that I ran into on the net.
    I saw a post on another forum, The Firing Line, where someone wants to load some old semi-jacketed soft points he found, and wanted to load them really light with Trail boss.

    Is there a chance he could leave a jacket stuck in his barrel by doing this?
    https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606961 I borrowed his picture so I know we are all talking about the same bullet and not the half jacket.

    I always loaded bullets like this medium to hot because I was told this when I was a youngster,

    What are your experiences with this issue?

    attachment.jpg
     
  2. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The bullet at the top is the kind of bullet Speer gave warnings about.
    Speer #11 - .38 Spl Warning Pic 3.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    I have some of those same bullets in .41, they are great. I don't believe the design of the bullet, with the cannelure, would lend itself to shedding the jacket in the bore... more likely just sticking from an under-powered load.

    I also used to shoot boxes of those Speer half-jackets in .41, I always thought they were good bullets... but this was before I had heard about the jackets sticking. Thinking about that particular bullet, I still don't understand how they can shed a jacket at low velocity.
     
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  4. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    AH! The good old Speer #11 Manual! My first reloading manual, and still one of my favorites...
     
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  5. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    That bullet Walkalong shows in the picture he posted is straight sided and has no cannular. I can see that being a problem, I don't think I ever used those.
    My Dad started me on loading rifle way back when but he never loaded a pistol round in his life. My Uncles told me about this problem but never showed me an example of the culprit, so I assumed all the non-bonded half and semi-jackets may have had this problem.
    I don't load light loads so I never really worried about it but got curious when I saw it on The Firing Line.

    Thanks guys
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  6. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    It's probably been discussed before, my googelfu is weak, but I would be curious to see a cross-section of the Speer half-jacket cup. I would almost be willing to bet it has a groove in the jacket somewhere to hold the core in... it just may not be enough.

    If you don't load light, you shouldn't have a problem. If you have the same experiences I've had with that bullet in the .41, you will fall in love.
     
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  7. Bill M.

    Bill M. Member

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    I sure would not load those bullets with light loads of Trail Boss. That would seem to be a recipe for sticking a bullet in the bore.
     
  8. mdi

    mdi Member

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    I used a lot of those style Speer bullets in my 44 Magnums many years ago, with data from my Speer #11. But I just noticed in my Speer #13 all the powders listed for the semi-jacketed 225 gr bullet are slower powders,with the "fastest" being 2400. I wonder if the data for 2400 to IMR 4227 or H110 was in an effort to reduce possibilities of lighter loads and sticking jackets?
     
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  9. 25-20 WCF

    25-20 WCF Member

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    The old Speer semi-jackets were crimped at the front of the jacket into the lead core. The risk at very low velocities was that if the bullet started to slow down in the barrel, jacket friction could cause the jacket to stick in the bore while the heavy lead core exited the barrel. The shooter would thus not be aware that a jacket blocked the bore and firing another shot could cause “problems“. The risk was apparently high enough that Speer warned about it for years.

    79BA723C-C8DC-41CE-989B-B31EFB6172B3.jpeg

    Sorry for the poor image quality.


    .
     
  10. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    If Hodgdon's directions are followed, SJHPs can be safely used with Trail Boss. If, though, by "light" we are talking about going below Hodgdon's minimum, then all bets are off.
     
  11. tightgroup tiger

    tightgroup tiger Member

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    So, was this never a problem with .38 special and the half jacket, and semi-jacket bullets that Remington sold years ago? That's what I was wondering about more than anything, as to how wide spread this problem was.
     
  12. Bill M.

    Bill M. Member

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    If we are talking about revolvers instead of rifles Hodgdon still says lead bullets in pistol cartridges and lead and jacketed bullets in rifle cartridges. The issue is sticking the bullet. Note in the quote from Hodgdon below it says lead bullets in pistol cartridges.

    "As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets."

    I would not try the bullets being discussed in this thread in a revolver with Trail Boss,
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  13. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    Are you talking about the minumum 70% of case capacity with TrailBoss? As per a e-mail to Hodgdon, their response assured me that this formula also works well with handgun calibers and jacketed bullets.
     
  14. Bill M.

    Bill M. Member

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    How about sharing the content of that email with us. My quote came from the reduced load section of Hodgdon website. And all the data they listed for jacketed bullets was for rifles. In the past there have been reports of Hodgdon saying on the phone and in emails that the trail boss was not for jacketed bullets in handguns.

    I would like to find out that it is okay for jacketed bullets in revolvers but so far I have seen nothing printed or written by Hodgdon that says it is okay.
     
  15. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    That e-mail would have been deleted many years ago from my computer as the question was asked many years ago. The reason the question was asked was because of the vagueness in the web page. If you doubt me, you are free to e-mail Hodgdon yourself and share what reply you get with us. In the reply I got, it was stated that one should not go below the minimum of 70% of case capacity. I've shot .357 mags, .44 mags and .460 mags, all with jacketed bullets using TrailBoss and never had an issue, other than performance was only decent when 90% or more of case capacity was used. Many of those loads chronoed similar to low loads with Unique.
     
  16. mdi

    mdi Member

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    If I'm correct, the subject is the half/semi-jacket Speer bullets separating from the lead core in the barrel. Big difference than under powered bullets not exiting the barrel...
     
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  17. sparkyv

    sparkyv Member

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    ...learn something new everyday. :)
     
  18. Bill M.

    Bill M. Member

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    From the OP.

    "I saw a post on another forum, The Firing Line, where someone wants to load some old semi-jacketed soft points he found, and wanted to load them really light with Trail boss. "

    My contention is still not to do that.
     
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