Japanese Steel

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1. Japanese swords were not tempered to make the edge harder, but to make the edge softer and less brittle than the body of the blade.

Boy... when the very first item in a long list of comments is so completely and absolutely wrong... it makes it hard to take anything that follows seriously.

Tempered blades have been used by more than the Japanese. It's still commonly used today in steel producing nations, not just for knives, but for industrial applications. Its purpose is to create a hard martensite edge while leaving the body & spine relatively soft to provide flexibility and support to the edge.
 
I think we have strayed a bit far from my question
but since were on a roll i will say no sword style is superior to another

think of it in modern times some spetznaz with an AK-74 could obliterate a US GI with a M4 and all its bells and whistles and vise versa

its the man not the tool that is the weapon

Yes the japanes did stiffle out in the forms and ritualistic kata of there sword style but thats not to say it was ineffective
to say a european sword style is superior would be nieve if you illiminate the human factor lets say musashi vs. a pesent european? or (place european hero here cause i cant think of any) vs. a japanese pesant wouldnt be a fair comparison but non the less the skill is what wins out not the style
now to place two experienced swordsmen together its still a toss up alot of eliments are involved besides just technical knowledge
Fear
Psychological Mind Play
True Used in Battle Experience
CHEATING!!!!
remember all is fair in love and war so if i think to kick sand up and get a "lucky" kill shot or "cheap shot" in its still a win and a "W" is always a "W"
 
Yes the japanes did stiffle out in the forms and ritualistic kata of there sword style but thats not to say it was ineffective
to say a european sword style is superior would be nieve if you illiminate the human factor lets say musashi vs. a pesent european? or (place european hero here cause i cant think of any)
Try William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke (b.1146 -- d.1214). He was a younger son of a minor nobleman, and had no lands or fortune to inherit, so he had to make his own way in life. He amassed a huge fortune beating knights in tournaments (you got all their gear, which was worth a lot of money, when you beat them -- and the tournaments were deadlier than they would eventually become when they were reduced to jousts), and his record was legendary: he beat over 500 other knights throughout his career. He eventually became regent of England during the minority of King Henry III.
 
Billy imagine the irony that i am watching a knights tale as i read that lol

My point was more to the fact that a "standard" commoner couldnt defeat a skilled warrior
this holds true no matter what century or era it is

the old expression "theres more than one way to skin a cat" comes to mind when i think of "battle, duels, war, or fighting"

there is no absolute proven effective method of defeating every person on this planet with just one style there will always be an anomoly or luck factor or something that can turn the tide
in real life paper doesnt always cover rock sometimes it bursts through rock may not break scissors before it chissels it down to pieces and dull sciccors just dont cut paper
 
Oh the samurai and the katana are overhyped, no question about it. But the form of the weapon changed so little over time not only because Japan was isolated, but because it really was a superb weapon. Strip all the hype away and you are left with a truly excellent, versatile sword, whose associated style of swordplay is quick, powerful, deadly, and well balanced in terms of offensive and defensive capability.

I agree. I was only trying to make the same point; that the Katana (and Samurai in general) are hyped in modern mythology. The difference is that western culture allowed and encouraged new arms and combat styles, while Japan closed its doors to keep the warrior class in power.

You're right too, that sword development in the west was driven by specific conditions and battlefield technology. Pick any one point in time and you'll note that western swords vary considerably for use on ships, cavalry, foot officers, whatever. And by nation - what worked for a Cossack on the steppes of Russia, wasn't what a British cavalryman wanted or needed.

I would disagree that the last swords (pre-wwi) are not the pinnacle of development. I think they are. They brought in several innovations that were completely new, most noticeably the grips which became ergonomic and fitted to the human hand in ways that were totally new. The blades themselves became quite elaborate in shape to give added strength and balance - quite subtle and real improvements over what came before them. That doesn't mean that they were now "perfect", just that they were the at the "pinnacle" of development when they became obsolete.
If sword use had continued we'd likely be seeing blades with titanium hearts or something like that. Who knows? But the 1900 era blades were state of the art for 1900 and were better than those that came before.
 
I would disagree that the last swords (pre-wwi) are not the pinnacle of development. I think they are. They brought in several innovations that were completely new, most noticeably the grips which became ergonomic and fitted to the human hand in ways that were totally new. The blades themselves became quite elaborate in shape to give added strength and balance - quite subtle and real improvements over what came before them. That doesn't mean that they were now "perfect", just that they were the at the "pinnacle" of development when they became obsolete.
I strongly disagree, for two reasons. First, that presupposes that the advocates of the point over edge were right, and the thrust was indisputably superior to the cut. I don't think that's nearly so clear cut (no pun intended). the matter never was, and never will be definitively settled. Second, and more importantly, there really can't be a pinnacle of development, because there is no, can be no "best sword." Swords are too specialized and are made to answer specific needs and purposes. A sword that will make an excellent cavalry sword will make a terrible weapon for infantry combat. A sword that will make a superb dueling weapon, like the rapier or the smallsword, is virtually useless for the battlefield, etc. The British 1908 and 1912 pattern swords, and the US M1913 were very specialized swords designed to do one thing really well, and that was skewer a man being charged by a cavalry trooper at full gallop, with the trooper's arms extended at full length in front of him. It may have been excellent for that purpose, with all the necessary strength, rigidity, natural pointing qualities, and so forth. That doesn't mean for an instant that it was a better dueling weapon than a rapier would have been. It certainly wouldn't have been as versatile for foot combat as a Renaissance longsword, or sword and buckler. Again, there is no "best sword," just swords which are better for their specific purposes.
 
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Billy Shears is correct. A type of sword is designed to fill a specific role. A sword perfect for one role won't be perfect for another. A sword perfect "today" won't be perfect for tomorrow or yesterday because the conditions will be different. I suppose it's possible to achieve perfection of a class (dueling, against plate, against chain, against unarmored cavalry, ...), but keep in mind that you may have more than one example of perfection within that class as well.
 
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The idea behind the last western swords was to do both thrusting and slashing. I suppose that's true of all swords to some degree, but the machining of the later swords allowed them to be long enough for effective thrusting from horseback, but also gave them more rigidity to prevent breaking or bending when slashing. Such rigidity in a light and balanced blade wasn't possible before this period. The technology just wasn't there yet.

If I have time later I'll take a close up picture of one of the blades I'm talking about. They're really quite a tribute to the machining technology of the era.
 
The idea behind the 1908 pattern British sword and the 1913 pattern US sword was overwhelmingly to make a weapon for thrusting. The official specification called for a "cut and thrust" blade, but in the event, the sword was purely optimized for thrusting. This isn't to say that you couldn't cut with it. You could. But it really didn't cut well, and wasn't meant to. Cutting ability was purely secondary, and a great deal of utility in cutting was sacrificed to make a blade dedicated to the thrust. Really, this is the way it always works. Swords that cut best have broad, curved blades which are relatively thin in cross section, which allows then to flex a good deal to withstand the shock of cutting. The British 1796 pattern light cavalry sword is almost the perfect example. The best thrusting swords are less broad, but thicker in cross section, making them much stiffer and more rigid so as to resist buckling in the thrust, and straight, with very acute, stabbing points. The British 1908 pattern cavalry sword is, again, almost the perfect example. In the space of a century, the British cavalry went from one extreme to the other. They had a stop in the middle with a compromise design, in the 1821 pattern sword that didn't cut nearly as well as the 1796 sword, or thrust as well as the 1908 sword, but was more versatile than either.

With the 1908 sword, they abandoned the compromise design and made a purpose-built thrusting sword. The blade was very narrow, but had a thick "T" cross-section, to give it more stiffness for the thrust. The large, sheet metal bowl guard gave considerable protection to the hand, but combined with the slenderness and lightness of the blade, and the weight of the pommel, shifted the balance back well toward the hilt, which is undesirable for a cutting sword, where you want to retain some mass over the center of impact. The semi-pistol grip configuration, was angled so as to cause the blade to naturally align with the arm when the arm was extended, in position for a charge using the point. A checkered thumb rest was indented on top of the grip, just behind the guard, and with the thumb placed upon it, and the arm extended at full length, the sword will make a continuous line with the straight arm. This was a weapon meant to be extended forward almost like a lance during the charge.

The configuration and balance of the sword actually mitigate against effective cutting. The light, narrow, stiff, straight blade lacks either the slicing action of a curved saber, or the concussive mass of a hacking broadsword. The concussive force would be still further compromised by the hilt-biased balance. And finally, the pistol grip with specialized thumb placement, while perfectly ideal for thrusting, was awkward for the cut.

One could still cut with the sword. Regulations called for it to be sharpened along its entire length for that purpose. Nevertheless, cutting ability was very much a secondary consideration in the design of this sword, and the sword didn't do it even remotely well compared to most other swords. Really this generation of cavalry swords are perfect demonstrations of what happens with specialization, and why there never will be a perfect sword in general. The more you optimize a sword for one purpose, the more you take away from its overall versatility. The more you optimize a blade for the thrust, the more you detract from its ability to cut, and vice versa. Or you can build a sword that will be pretty good at both jobs, but not as good at either as specialized swords optimized for either purpose. Every design is a compromise, and what you get depends on what trade offs you want to make.
 
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KB,

I suspect the blades were probably forged instead of "machined". Also, you want rigidity for thrusting so the blade doesn't bend when the point hits something hard and flexibility when you cut so the blade doesn't break when you hit something hard.
 
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Interesting stuff, Billy!

I don't know. I think it's just the nature of the beast that all swords will cut/slash pretty well, but not all swords are good at thrusting.

I have a dozen different swords dating from about 1850 to 1907, and some repro's from earlier periods. When I've used them in combat against various opponents ranging from hay bales to large squash I've found they all cut pretty well, but not all will thrust well.

For example; I have a late Czarist era Russian/Cossack Shashka which is obviously optimized for cutting, but it really doesn't cut deeper or more effectively than my Puerto Seguro 1907's which are straight blades similar to the Brit 1908/1912 models (there is speculation the Brits copied the design from the Spanish).
The Shashka has a longer "sweet spot" than the M1907 meaning if you catch the target just about anywhere along the length you'll get a good cut. But, on the other hand the M1907 has such an improved grip that you tend to get a stronger cut. The Shashka (and just about all my other swords) tend to bend back in the hand or turn when you hit something solid. The M1907 stays firm allowing you to finish your draw cut at full strength.

I'm no kind of swordsman, just a guy with a pot belly playing with swords in my back yard. And most of these are for cavalryman anyway, and I'm using them on foot, so... I'm not putting forth my experiences as definitive in any way. :) However, I had a number of swords before picking up my first M1907, and right from the beginning I realized these were something very different. I don't have a "Patton" or a Brit 1908, but I did get a chance to handle both recently and found them to be in the same class as the M1907. I like them.
 
I suspect the blades were probably forged instead of "machined". Also, you want rigidity for thrusting so the blade doesn't bend when the point hits something hard and flexibility when you cut so the blade doesn't break when you hit something hard.

I assume the blades are forged and then machined to complete the rather intricate design, but I don't really know.

A couple of pix to illustrate. An M1907 vs a fairly standard German blade from about the same period.
The German saber is both lighter and shorter, but because of the grip design doesn't feel nearly as controllable when used. Check out the swell in the grip of the M1907, and the overall size - it can be used two handed if need be.
Note the difference in the blade profiles - the deep fuller and "T" back on the M1907 vs the simplicity of the older design.
Also note the heavy plate hand guard and heavy pommel on the M1907. It's heavy enough to crack a skull if struck.

I realize we're diverging from the OP, and I apologize for that. But the blade design of the Katana isn't very different from many western sabers.

sword.jpg

sword2.jpg

sword3.jpg
 
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