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Jericho, effectiveness of hasty militias

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Lucky, May 4, 2007.

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  1. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    Anyone watch that? It was pretty good.

    I'm wondering about the end scene where they were handing out rifles to everyone without. I don't think I've ever had a rifle that I could shoot straight right away, they all needed to be zeroed. If a bunch of people are given a bunch of rifles they've never shot before, immediately before having to use them in combat, at what ranges could they be effective? I'm imagining they could harass out to 200 or 300m, but hitting targets would be another thing. At 100m even with a zeroed rifle it's easy to miss an 8x11" piece of paper if you're not careful. With an unfamiliar rifle, lots of stress, and a rifle that you don't actually know shoots straight or not, maybe 50m would be a reasonable distance to expect the militia to hit targets? Would that be a case where you see an authority telling them to hold fire until they can see the whites of the enemy's eyes?

    In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?


    Lastly, if they'd had a .50BMG rifle, at roughly what distance would a decent shooter have been able to put holes in the mortar tubes?


    P.S. I like how there weren't sparks flying off everything that was hit!
     
  2. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    I suspect such a group would be most valuable as defenders, if that. Just being able to put lead in the air in the general vicinity of the enemy probably is helpful. You are not going to get any useful offenseiv capability out of such a group.

    personally, best bet in this kind of situation would be to go after the leadership of the enemy. cut off the head, and the rest of the snake is not all that dangerous.
     
  3. bogie

    bogie Member

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    If the enemy has his head down, he's not running toward you.

    That's why I keep harping on the concept of the Bogardus Light Perimeter Defense Device.
     
  4. 1 old 0311

    1 old 0311 member

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    Well trained marksman can do a lot of damage to a larger force. Look at the American revolution, or the South in the Civil War.
    Well trained marksman with combat experience would up your odds even more.
     
  5. DogBonz

    DogBonz Member

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    Zero

    most off the shelf rifles will need their sights tweeked a little to get nice groups, but I think that most will still shoot minute of bad guy. Even if a rifle is shooting 4-5 moa at 100 yards thats 8-10 inches at 200 yards. Pick up a dinner plate (usually 9") and put it on your chest. I bet that there is still pleanty of you outside of that plate, right.
     
  6. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Oh, and if you're concerned about your people actually aiming, store a buncha shotguns and buckshot in your bunker. Yeah, I _know_ the effective range is maybe 50 yards. Would you wanna be hit by a buckshot ball, which started out at 1000 fps, at 100 yards?
     
  7. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Good argument for optical sights -- you get away from the problems with different cheek welds.
     
  8. 30 cal slob

    30 cal slob Member

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    Derek - are you referring to "red dots?"
     
  9. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Sure. Or scout scopes. Or more traditional scopes.
     
  10. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    The problem isn't marksmanship. The problem is lack of ability to maneuver together, lack or artillery and the inability to handle weapons fast enough for close combat. Militias seldom have effective medical corps, so most casualties would die. Lack of helmets and body armor means susceptibility to grenade and shell fragments. Lack of artillery is huge -- probing forces can retreat and pound any objective held by militia with impunity.

    Militias work against mobs. They do not work against professional armies -- witness the fast demise of the Montenegro militia in the first days of WW1.
     
  11. Boats

    Boats member

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    Jericho is both refreshingly cool and monumentally stupid at the same time.

    Ex-military guys who don't take rifles into obvious rifle needed situations, like getting run off the road by raiders in an earlier episode and having exactly one shot back at the opposition vehicle from a 9mm handgun during the pursuit. WTFO?

    Ex-military guys who defer to an idiotic mayor on strategic and tactical situations. Hizzoner Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey got most of his "Rangers" killed in an ambush in no small part aided by his use of an unsecure broadcast of radioed intel and orders. Morons.

    A retired Marine who can't hold an unarmed truck driver at gunpoint. Oh yeah, and these guys are just as bad shots as the old A-Team for dramatic tension during offensive actions, and deadeyes when they need to absolutely fight out an escape during defensively oriented shootings.:rolleyes:

    I like that the show is "post-apocalyptic" in nature and doesn't have much truck in pacifism, but it is too touchy-feely about survival issues and it is looking increasingly likely that the nuking of America on the show was an inside job that would make Rosie O twitter in delight.

    The season finale had better pique my interest or the show won't get another chance from this viewer.
     
  12. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Actually, I was thinking just the opposite. With a scope, unless it has been carefully zeroed, you have no idea where the dang thing is actually going to hit.

    Open/iron sights are not quite so precise, but unless it has been damaged you can usually pick up any rifle and the windage will be right on. Might have to tweak the elevation a bit, but with those stepped-ramp rear sights that is quick and you can return to where it was real easy.

    But assumes at least a somewhat capable rifleman - otherwise you might do better handing out pitchforks ;)
     
  13. waynesan

    waynesan Member

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    Boats, I really like this show and it has really kept me interested so far. But like you I'm a little ticked at some of the goofy gunplay they've shown. This weeks episode with the shootout on the road must have had 1000 rounds fired before anyone was hit. And the scene where eight or ten guys all pulled handguns (semi's) and you hear the inevitable hammer cocking sound from all of them. But as I mentioned on another thread about Jerico, as long as Ashley Scott (the girl with the long blond hair) is on it, I will watch!
     
  14. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Member

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    Militias, if motivated and organized, are best used in unconventional operations and guerrilla warfare.

    Even if there were no laws against citizens owning artillery, jet fighters, and tanks, these items are so expensive and difficult to maintain/use that not enough citizens would have them to make a difference. Say ten rich citizens own F-16s; what good are they going to be against an entire enemy air force? They haven't trained together, coordinated, or anything. Even if they do, it's one squadron against an entire air force of professionally trained fighter pilots. They might die heroically, but they'll still die.

    Say your neighbor owns a tank. What good is his one tank against an entire armor battalion? All his tank is good for is an artillery magnet.

    The reality is, modern military technology is so sophisticated, so capable, and so expensive that no rag-tag militia force is going to stand a chance in a straight-up fight.

    As numerous conflicts in history prove, though, one needn't necessarily engage in a straight up fight to win. You'd better be prepared to accept severe losses, though. To that end, you'd better be pretty damned motivated, otherwise morale will plunge and your effort will fail in short order.
     
  15. buck00

    buck00 Member

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    I think N Crawler hit it on the head. I don't watch Jericho, but if a trained military force was approaching a town, and a bunch of carbines were handed out to the billy bob civilians- all it would guarantee is an extra 50 dead civilians holding carbines.

    The strength of a military unit (regardless if it is guerilla or conventional) is the ability to coordinate efforts and the group training they have. Ever play paintball with a group- when some guys are doing their own thing without any regard for strategy or coordination? It can be frustrating.

    Or think of football- you could have the strongest and most talented guy in the world but without the rest of the team his talent and effort is easily neutralized by the opposing team.


    * So that is why I cringe when I hear guys bragging how they are going to use their tricked-out synthetic stock SKS with a red dot to hold off the invading Chinese or UN army. :rolleyes: Firearms are good for personal self defense, but we need to be realistic about their use by random civilians vs a real army.
     
  16. ARGarrison

    ARGarrison Member

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    Most military small arms have what is called a battle field zero. That gives you a close enough point from witch to aim. Load, reload and imediate action drills should come before marksmanship. Keep the lead flying then worry about hitting targets.

    They did not want to take the mortars out. They wanted to take the mortars.

    It's not Military vs Milita on Jericho. It is Jericho Milita against their neighbor's milita. It's just that the other town is preparing for war and has mortars vs Jericho's small arms.

    How come no earth work defenses? They have had all winter to improve the situation and still use trucks to block roads. Trench warefare sucks but it works in the defenders favor.

    Lastly, do not forget Jericho has a Abrams MBT. Even with out main gun rounds or machinegun it is a formatable weapon.
     
  17. DonP

    DonP Member

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    I missed several episodes but caught most of Wednesday night's show.

    The premise is they are facing another "unorganized militia" from a neighborhing town. Not a trained and disciplined military force.

    Now that they have neutralized the other town's firepower advantage (mortars) they are sending out squad sized teams to cover the most likely approach routes to the town, the neigboring farms and their salt mine.

    It's all fantasy but if each squad has someone with some military experience and some basic orders on the objectives and rules of engagement, the premise might work against another undisciplined group, especially if they were expecting little resistance.

    The shoot outs are pretty much standard Hollyweird fare, but Gerald McRainey is a major player in the series, a serious shooter and a strong 2nd amendment advocate. I don't see him letting them use "magic bullets" where one shot blows up a semi, like they do on Miami CSI, or "spray from the hip" and kill hundreds with one burst.

    But bad shooting images go way back in Hollywood. In the 1st Cav our standard appeal, when anyone asked what we needed on the next supply chopper, was for "One of them John Wayne guns, that never needed reloading and could kill five bad guys with a single shot from the hip". Never got one though but I'm still looking.
     
  18. buck00

    buck00 Member

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    As I said I don't watch the show. But if this is the case- then I would throw the dice and hand out carbines. An unorganized group vs another unorganized group is a totally different situation.

    As far as zeroing rifles? If it is urban combat- most fighting is done under 200 yards.
     
  19. Geronimo45

    Geronimo45 Member

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    Hadn't heard about this show. Guess I'll have to catch up on it.

    Worth of such a group: Depends on the range. If it's about 200 yards, that trained shooter may be in a world of trouble.
    Many new shooters'll shut their eyes when they're pulling the trigger. That throws their aim off a bit - possibly offsetting the baid zero of the sights. Whether the shots are pinpoint or no, you've got some suppressive fire on the position that's not easy to ignore.

    Question: Has anybody in that series got wise and started a brewery? After all, in an end-of-the-world situation, an irregular army marches on its liver.
     
  20. Kali Endgame

    Kali Endgame member

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    Thanks for getting me interested. Iv'e heard of the show, but never watched it. Now I will check it out. I am always interested in a good(decent) show.
     
  21. buck00

    buck00 Member

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    Hahaha. I never heard this one before.

    I may have to check it out myself. In Stephen King's "The Stand" the big thing is the CA group (bad guys) begins trying to get to military stock piles at abandoned military bases. They aren't messing around with 30-06 rifles at the local mom and pop stores- they were trying to get chemical weapons, jets, etc. Of course, they would also need qualified military people to use such advanced weapons.

    That would be the smartest move in a post-apocalyptic world- get to a military arsenal that is intact and stock up on whatever you can.
     
  22. Biker

    Biker Member

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    Flagg had the Trashcan Man and The Free Zone had Tom Cullens and Stu Redman - Good vs. Evil. The Walkin' Dude gets screwed every time. M-O-O-N and that spells *screwed*!

    Biker;)
     
  23. tmajors

    tmajors Member

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    Don't be too turned off by the first oh 5 episodes which us regular viewers refer to as "The Super Jake Show". The show gets better, really.

    Yes the town has a moonshine bar. Became moonshine when the beer and bottled liquer ran out. Though the last few episodes the still has been used to make antiseptic for the hospital instead of hooch so even the moonshine is low.
     
  24. Sean85746

    Sean85746 Member

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    ...and what it comes down to is the willingness of the men with rifles to actually use them.

    From the beginning of the show, which I like, the "humanity" of the Jericho townspeople has been part of their semi-undoing. That same humanity has helped keep them together, but it also got Gray Davis elected mayor, and Johnston Green voted out of office. To anyone with common sense, Johnston was and IS the best leader for the town.

    These folks need to be willing to pop primers on former neighbors, and "friendly football rivals".

    So, no matter how many rifles have been handed out to those "16 and above", unless they are willing to use them the fight is over. Extensive training is likewise moot, there will be no time. What is needed RIGHT NOW is effective leadership. Johnston, Jake and Erik Green, Rob Hawkins (CIA Super Spook With the Nuke). Small bands of the so called "Jericho Rangers" led by these guys COULD mount a pretty good offensive campaign while others manned static defensive postions.

    I like the show. I like that it actually LOOKS like a struggle in a post-apocalyptic world. It is a true (though Hollywood conceived) SHTF scenario (that is SO totally far fetched I won't argue it's merits here).

    It is a good argument for having several dogs capable of breeding..."Dog makes a fine meal". LOL.
     
  25. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    Sorry to nitpick; but Johnston Green is a former Ranger, not a Marine.

    Hey that reminds me, the town does have a tank.
     
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