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Jewelry Store is being robbed, good citizen with a gun jumps in, innocent man dies

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Jeff White, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Video shows shootout inside jewelry store where ex-Marine was killed


    https://mol.im/a/8909859

    H
    appened in 2017 in San Antonio. The video that’s been released shows the armed citizen rushing in and opening fire on the robbers. The robbers return fire and an innocent customer is killed.

    What in the world was the armed citizen thinking? The police don’t charge into an armed robbery so that this exact outcome doesn’t happen.
     
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  2. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    Holy crap! That is 100% not why I CCW!
     
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  3. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    Was the guy rushing in with his gun drawn defending himself? NO!
    Does the guy rushing in with his gun drawn to confront the robbers carry some responsibility for the innocent customer's death... DEFINITELY!!!!
    It sounds like the guy rushing in settled out of court with the widow. I am sure it cost him dearly, but definitely not nearly as much as his actions cost the widow and her 4 children!

    This certainly doesn't bode well for responsible CCW holders!

    One robber got life +20 and the other one is still waiting trial. I hope they both get life without paroll! Is life +20 the same thing as life without paroll?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  4. Dibbs

    Dibbs Member

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    On the one hand, sheep-dogging is almost always a bad move. So I'm not advocating the armed customer's actions. OTOH, IMO, the criminals committing armed robbery should be held entirely to blame. The armed man who intervened obviously used bad judgement, but he wouldn't have had a judgement to call to make, if armed criminals were not committing a premeditated crime.

    Yes, an innocent person got killed. Yes, he might have survived, otherwise. The criminals need to be charged with murder, if they hadn't been robbing the place at gunpoint, there would have been no attempt at intervention, and this man wouldn't have died.
     
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  5. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    I understand what you're saying and I believe the felony murder rule should apply

    BUT

    the "good samaritan" made a decision to intervene in that situation, no one forced him into it and his negligence caused an innocent person to die.

    He should absolutely be held accountable
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The criminal justice system did hold them to blame. However in our system there is also a civil court system. The civil court system is set up to hold everyone accountable for their actions.

    The police would not have charged into that situation. They would have set up outside and attempted to make an arrest that didn’t endanger others.

    An armed citizen is responsible for this death. Not criminally, but civilly. That is the reality of our society. I don’t know how much it cost him to settle this case but besides the financial cost he gets to live with the knowledge that a man is dead because he used very poor judgement.
     
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  7. buddyd157

    buddyd157 Member

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    the "good samaritan" , took it upon himself to be judge, jury, and executioner, and not having ANY signs posted, is a moot point. you simply DO NOT get into a gun fight, UNLESS they are shooting at you. that so-called good samaritan, is who needs to be sued, and held culpable for the killing of the bystander. i find the widows lawsuit against the mall to be one is which is misguided by a money grubbing attorney.

    go after the RIGHT person and persons RESPONSIBLE for the killing.

    for that matter then, maybe there ought to be mandated federal and local laws stating that ALL businesses, such as shopping malls, ice cream parlors, pizza shops, and 7-11's, have signs posted, forbidding weapons.
     
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  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's not the way the law works.

    With tragic consequences. Makes him culpable.

    Completely irrelevant.
     
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  9. South Prairie Jim

    South Prairie Jim Member

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    A good reason why I mind my own damn business.
     
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  10. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

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    Someone had been watching too much TV and thought it would go the same way in real life. He found out the hard way it does not sadly. MANY times I have heard people who carry talk like this. How if they were in say a bank, and some come in to rob it they would draw. I try to tell them chances are it would NOT go as they think. If it was me? Unless they started trying to herd witnesses into the back I would let the thieves take their stuff and get.
     
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    So would I, but failure to herd people into the back is no guarantee that they will not gun people down.

    Robbers, not thieves. Big legal difference.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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  12. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    One cop/coach/writer said he told his wife that if they were in an establishment being held up, do nothing as long as the crooks were only taking the business' money. But if they made customers lie on the floor or started searching them - which would discover his badge - "move away from me, the shooting is fixing to start."
     
  13. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    There was discussion in TX way back when about allowing carry in stores and liability. Some argued that allowing carry would make the store responsible when things go bad if an employee or customer shoots someone. I don't recall a discussion of whether a customer action causing a criminal to shoot someone was part of the debate.

    As far as the 'policy' - TX law is clear that you have to post a 30.07 or 07 sign to ban carry. Saying the mall didn't do that and they had some written policy somewhere is a touch of a stretch. However, store management in TX has been clueless about signs quite a bit.

    I agree the guy who rush in was an absolute idiot and culpable. That mall is not urban but suburban. It has access to quite a few roads for escape though. San Antonio has been seeing crime in its 'nice areas'. There was an assassination at lunch time on a restaurant row road in an upscale mall just before we left. We were not feeling safe there anymore.
     
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  14. wiscoaster

    wiscoaster Member

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    Been watching too much TV and confused fantasy with reality.
     
  15. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    The original TX LTC classes were supposed to discourage you from such antics. Then the class was shortened. I don't know if they still have the emphasis on avoidance that they had originally. In class, you always had some yahoo who wanted permission to shoot someone.
     
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  16. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

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    True story.

    My nextdoor neighbor robbed the bank across the street from where we live. He got less than $1,000 and the police were at his front door within 3 days. I never saw him after that and I assume he's in jail.

    A guy that I used to go to church with robbed something like twelve banks in Colorado Springs. He was caught when the lead detective on his case randomly pulled up behind him in traffic and recognized his license plate.

    A guy that I was in the army with robbed a bank just off post at Fort Lewis on his lunch hour. He got picked up the next morning and was sentenced to something like 13 years in a federal penitentiary. Maybe the Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth.

    The point to this story (aside from the fact that I seem to know a lot of idiots) is that none of them used a gun.
     
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  17. Frulk

    Frulk Member

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    Interesting link.....I don’t carry to be the good guy with the gun if needed. Folks who don’t carry make a conscious decision to rely on the police to provide them with protection if things go south and not on me. MY gun is to protect myself and mine. Plan A is always to withdraw to cover and wait it out if possible until the paid professionals arrive and only engage if corned and/or loved ones are threatened.
     
  18. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

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    Too lazy to look it up but last I read a startling percentage of bank heists are never solved, which kind of surprised me when I last read it. A LOT of them are done by complete morons which helps the Cops.
    Long ago in another life little dinky bank I used to stop at. Had 2 teller lines. Always had an armed guard. I used to wonder why that bank? Well it got hit one morning. Turns out they were using it to store cash from all over the city each night. 4 guys paint a van to look like Ma Bell, come in and haul over 4 mil off. That was a LOT of money back then. Like day or two they catch 3 of them. Guys seemed to have no idea what they were walking into. Well 3 weeks later they have not found the 4th. I thought well one of them must have had a brain. Turns out no he did not. He went 100 miles away to the capitol city of the state, bought a new Vet with cash, was driving around with some stripper and the rest of his cut in the car. How it took them 3 weeks to catch him no one could understand. :rofl:
     
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  19. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    An FBI agent once said, if you want to rob A bank, you can probably get away with it. It is building up an MO and making mistakes when you keep it up that will get you caught.
     
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  20. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    As a younger cop I learned of off-duty cops who intervened in on-view armed robberies with tragic consequences. A couple of them I remember the gist of is that the off-duty cops started shooting before the suspects had started shooting anyone, and then when the suspects responded with their own gunfire, innocent persons were shot. One case, as I recall, involved the death of the off-duty cop's child.

    Whenever I responded to a suspected armed robbery while on-duty (like bank alarms), we always took strategic positions outside the building and waited outside. We didn't want to force a situation where innocent lives were recklessly put at risk if our actions caused armed suspects to start shooting inside a building.

    I don't carry a retirement weapon to protect property, especially the property of someone else (like a store). I only carry to protect life.

    I've had this conversation when asked by a friend who owns a business I often frequent, meaning he asked if I'd use my retirement weapon to prevent an armed robbery. I told him the same thing another retired cop friend told him (who also patronizes his business). As long as a suspect was only trying to grab money and/or merchandise and leave, without starting stabbing or shooting him or an employee, I'd be a trained witness and help the locals ID the suspect(s) later on. Now, if, based upon my training and experience, I reasonably believed that he or an employee (or myself) were at immediate risk of serious bodily injury or death during the robbery, that was a different matter. No reasonable person wants to escalate a situation and start a shootout that results in innocent persons being seriously injured or killed.
     
  21. Koroner

    Koroner Member

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    I cannot even remember all the times I've seen some idiot exploit somebody else's predicament just to seize on an opportunity to play hero.

    And what do they say after screwing things up??










    Well,.. I was only trying to help!
    (an excuse I despise)
     
  22. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Defense of others is legal across the country. You don't have to be just defending yourself.

    This guy wasn't defending himself either when he shot and killed a man on top of a deputy...


    I am not suggesting that what was done in the jewelry store robbery was properly executed, only that carrying a gun does not have to only be for defense of oneself.

    And yet we, as a gun community, regularly like to take credit for said heroes when things turn out well, don't we? Here are just a few examples from this forum...

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/licensed-gun-owner-saves-cop.798071/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...zen-stops-stabbing-spree-in-utah-mall.691707/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/armed-citizen-stops-stabbing-outside-school.675127/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/armed-citizen-stops-knife-wielding-mad-man.657068/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unarmed-officers-foils-mass-shooting.869018/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ed-citizen-saves-woman-being-attacked.628921/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-on-customers-at-tulsa-shopping-pla.866003/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...river-pull-over-as-man-clings-to-hood.846874/
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/a-good-guy-with-a-gun-gets-formal-recognition.759100/

    So we really like it when a 'good guy with a gun' does something that turns out well, but if it turns out badly, we throw them under the bus.
     
  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's really not it, from my point of view.

    I won't celebrate a good outcome if it represented happenstance in a less than prudent action, or if the reason for immediate intervention were not extremely compelling.
     
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  24. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    They deserve to be thrown under the bus! Then we need to run the bus back and forth over them until they are flat. Citizens who carry firearms for defense of themselves and others need to be responsible in how they use them. Charging into a mall jewelry store firing at armed robbers is not responsible. That kind of conduct always hurts the concealed carry movement as it reinforces the antis arguments against concealed carry.
     
  25. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep. It also hurts and kills innocent people.

    Under the bus with 'em
     
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