Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Jews + "Never Again!"

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by twoblink, Oct 3, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. twoblink

    twoblink Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,727
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    I'm fairly curious, (I'm not Jewish, nor do I play one on TV)..

    BUT... I would have assumed that since Hitler,SS,Concentration Camps, "Get in the Shower" and other phrases that are utter horrors of the Holocost are taught to your children if you are Jewish, and to your children's children, etc..

    How is it "Never Again!" is not known to any of my Jewish friends (that aren't on THR..)..?
     
  2. FPrice

    FPrice Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,380
    Location:
    People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts
    twoblink...

    "How is it "Never Again!" is not known to any of my Jewish friends (that aren't on THR..)..?"

    Despite what this question may assume (please don't take this as a slam insinuating that you are biased - it's not) Jews, like any other group are not a monolithic, homogenous group of people. Aside from their shared religion they have many other widely varying attributes which can define their view of the world. They may be liberal, conservative, libertarian, middle-of-the-road, or any other variation of political leaning. They can be devoted to their religion or entirely divorced from any religious practises.

    It is my guess that the further removed from the European Jews who bore the brunt of Hitler's "final solution" and with the passage of time, many of these terrors are fading to insignificance in some Jews.

    Yet others remember and have vowed never again.

    I would ask you to think of your own heritage. IIRC you are Asian. Suppose someone asked you why all Asians did not think alike on some subject, what would you say to that?

    While someone outside a group may think that all in that group share some characteristics or feelings, that is not always accurate. Given a large group there are bound to be tremendous differences from person to person in thoughts and actions.

    Again, please don't take this as a slam against you - it's not. I'm just trying to answer your question the best I can.
     
  3. AF_INT1N0

    AF_INT1N0 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    484
    I know that not all Jews, or any group think alike. But having genocide carried out on your particular group, (and Hitler was not the first, hopefully the last). Is pretty darn universal. There are certain Ideals that would seem to be prevalent, and not allowing your kids to be killed by some government hardliner seems pretty commonsense to me. It would also stand to reason that people trying to take away your means of defending yourself against these A-Holes would be met with a great deal of hostility.

    Of course the latter goes for any group.

    You don't have to be homogenous to follow basic instincts.
     
  4. feedthehogs

    feedthehogs Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,801
    People in general have very short memories.
    Remove them a few generations from any kind of persecution and bingo.
     
  5. Roon

    Roon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Cornelius, NC
    An interesting commentary from the Boston Globe.

    I don't think you need to be registered.
     
  6. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    9,040
    Location:
    SouthEast PA
    None of my friends who are both Jewish and Gunny, (I've got several) understand or can explain why the trend of American Jews is towards liberality and tend towards gun bigotry.

    When they query their brethren, the answers are the typical "it can't happen here" dodge.

    Of my friends who are Jewish and non gunny, they personally tend towards explanations like "guns are OK for problems that actually exist, like predators on a farm, but aren't useful for self defense, and the notion of fending off the US Army is preposterous."
     
  7. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,831
    Because the Holocaust happened in Europe, not here, because persecution against that particular tribe of mankind has been the norm forever it seems and thus, is accepted, because to stand up and fight is all icky and is more physical than intellectual.
    (Sorry for all the generalizing stereotypes if I've offended anyone from any race or religion.)

    I've got four friends who are Israeli and they and their sons ALL have a totally different outlook on self defense. These guys were all IDF and saw various elephants from '67 on. All have one or two serious personal defense weapons at home and I would not care to cross any one of them.

    So maybe its a "BTDT" vs. "Never BT, Never DT and can't even imagine thinking about doing violence to protect me and mine" sorta thing... ya think?
     
  8. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,291
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    True, but some groups seem to have a higher % of members who try to remember. The Irish diaspora around the world is a good example. Many still note the famine, coffin ships, Easter rebellion, etc.

    Of coures the ongoing troubles in N. Ireland are a constant reminder to many.

    The U.S. St. Patrick's day parades are another reminder. They're an embarassment to some with their schlock and drunkenness, but serve a valuable purpose as an easy reminder of the past.

    It's difficult to believe that most Jewish people aren't aware of the phrase "never again"
     
  9. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Messages:
    7,377
    Location:
    CA
  10. KMKeller

    KMKeller Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,633
    Location:
    NC
    Denial and an idealistic believe that American is the one place in the world where that kind of thing can never happen. Also, self hatred.
     
  11. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,083
    Location:
    Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
    As an alum of a Jewish school (Chicago-Kent College of Law, founded when Jew were not allowed into University of Chicago or Northwestern), I asked my fellow members this exact question. The answer I received was always this, "we are in charge here. It could never happen to us here." Yet at the same time they were always expressing shock and horror at anti-Jewish violent crimes in Chicago, in the news, or how Christians were just waiting to put them in camps.

    I always offerred to take my fellow students shooting. They always looked at me like I offerred them bacon.:D Heck, when I offered to teach them boxing or grappling, I got laughs.

    Call me a really confused goy, but I have never understood the support the Jews give to persons who would render them defenseless victims.:uhoh: :confused:
     
  12. Roon

    Roon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Cornelius, NC
    I think this belief is held by most Americans, and certainly by all of the antis. We here believe the Second Amendment wasn't added to preserve deer hunting, and, as a result, we are derided.

    What's that old saying, "Freedom isn't free!"
     
  13. winstonsmith

    winstonsmith Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2003
    Messages:
    854
    Location:
    Frisco... unfortunately...
    This Jew was taught a militant "Never Again" even before he was a gunny.

    I was also taught this gem:

    If not this way, how?

    If not me, who?

    If not now, when?

    If I am not for me, who will be?

    -------------


    Never again.

    I will take responsibility for my own freedom, thankyaverymuch.
     
  14. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    6,887
    Location:
    Plymouth Meeting, PA
    My family lost members to rampaging Cossacks in pogroms in Poland.

    I've visited Dachau and seen the ovens and the gas chambers (it's claimed that the gas chambers were not used there. Sure.) I lost relatives in the Holocaust.

    THIS Jew is armed to the teeth. I take "Never again!" very seriously.

    You want my guns? Come and get 'em.
     
  15. DesertEagle613

    DesertEagle613 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    221
    I think much of the problem is that if you accept the premise of "Never Again," you must also accept the responsibility for self-defense and preparation that goes with it. Many of our "softer" brethren seem pathalogically incapable of doing so, so they just ignore the issue or rationalize it away.

    That said, if SHTF, I will gladly defend them anyway (though I hope that they would see the light once the bullets are flying).
     
  16. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    24,041
    Location:
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    It can happen anywhere.
     
  17. E36M3

    E36M3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Famous last words in WWII Germany were: "We're Germans first. It can't happen here.". Jews that don't live by the "Never Again" code aren't Jews. Anti-gun Jews are the single dumbest group of people on this earth. And the leaders of gun-control, Jewish or otherwise, are the greatest ally of the future Hitler.
    I'm seriously considering having "Never Again" tattoo'ed across my back. Tattoos aren't permited in the Jewish religion so this would be quite a statement, especially on the beaches of Margate and Ventnor, NJ.
    The KKK/Nazi rally in Valley Forge on Yom Kippur last week was proof that it can and probably will happen again. Anyone who's ever looked down on me because of my Conservative views will pray that I'm at their side if the SHTF. I'm not willing to share a foxhole with any of them, though, so they'll likely be SOL.
    I hope that someone can help rid me of my very bad attitude. It can't be healthy.
     
  18. Rabbi

    Rabbi Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    MI
    Rabbi Mier Kahane, who started using the phrase "Never Again" in his book, was the founder of the Jewish Defense League. In his later years after emigrating to Israel, he became so radical that he turned off many American Jews who initially supported him. He became a proponent of the wanton and random killing of all Arabs and Muslims. The Rabbi went off the dep end. The J.D.L. is now headquartered in Florida I believe and has been inherited by extremists and if I'm not mistaken, is now listed by the State Department as a terrorist organization.

    I have never understood Jewish liberals either, and I have tried but there are a LOT of us who are right-wing gun owners and firmly believe in the idea of "Never Again". It has been my signature for four years and my philosophy for forty years. Genocide is always a threat, anywhere and some of us will not walk humbly to the ovens, praying.

    Some of us are rather old and a bit infirm, but firearms are indeed "liberty's teeth".

    Regards,

    Rabbi
     
  19. Roon

    Roon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Cornelius, NC
    I remember telling one of my old and dear friends, a Jew and a liberal, about the need to defend oneself. She dismissed me. I then sent her a link to JPFO. Her response, "Oh great, skinhead Jews!"

    I'd still work to protect her. Some folks just don't get it.
     
  20. Croyance

    Croyance Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,160
    My question about "Never Again" is why there are few statements released condemning genocides of other people. I understand not having the resources to do something about each of them, but a simple statement looks reasonable to me. From the country of Israel or large groups is what I mean. Certainly individuals hold their own opinions.

    Many who have personally seen the violence of war as a civilian don't want to be around guns. It is easy to condemn, as a civilian in a peaceful country or a soldier. I don't agree, but I can see how a person would not want to be around what they see as a tool of destruction.
    The connection to Liberalism makes sence. In the beginning of the Civil Rights movement, blacks and Jews worked together. The promotion of a more egalitarian point ot view would work to the advantage of a group that has traditionally been in the minority. The viewpoint promotes future safety.
    However, Liberalism (with the big 'L') also means pro gun control. Funny to me, since I believe liberalism (small 'L') is about personal freedoms within the framework of society.
     
  21. matis

    matis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    384
    Location:
    I used to live in the USA; now I find myself in th
    Rabbi Mier Kahane, who started using the phrase "Never Again" in his book, was the founder of the Jewish Defense League. In his later years after emigrating to Israel, he became so radical that he turned off many American Jews
    _______________________________________________________
    Greetings Rabbi,

    You posted that Rabbi Meir Kahane went off the deep end and turned off many American Jews.

    I don't think he went off the deep end at all. He was on the scene while the American Jews he turned off viewed this scene on TV.. Kahane realized early that the Jews in Israel and the Arabs would NEVER be able to get along with each other. And he knew why. NOTHING the Jews could do would mollify the Arabs who resent and hate the Jews and lust for their blood.

    He wrote a book called, THEY MUST GO! I challenge you, or anyone else to refute anything he wrote there, or anywhere else.

    The Jews he turned off are the same liberal Jews who say "never again", but hate the 2nd amendment and fear gun owners. They fear the believing Christians who are the Jews' and Israel's best friends, in the USA and in the world.

    You say he advocated random killing of Arabs. What he really advocated was Jewish self-defence against murderous, marauding Arabs who typically got away with their barbarism.

    Even today, Arabs guilty of killing Jews or of being involved in the planning or support of killing Jews are arrested and later often released wholesale in trade for one Israeli and some dead bodies of Jewish soldiers (in the latest instance). Then these same animals kill more Jews.

    The Jewish Defence League, advocated defence of Jews and synagogues besieged by tough blacks in the inner cities. The JDL mobilized tough young Jews with baseball bats who showed the world that not all Jews are cringing pushovers.

    But MOST American Jews recoiled from the JDL and stigmatized it as 'extremist" from the beginning. The same kind of liberal Jews who will vote for Kerry, who demonize the friends of Jews and Israel, and who support the leftists who embody the new anti-semites. The left that supports the "Palestinians" and works to destroy Israel is good to go with such people, but those who face reality and tell it -- those they hate.

    The Jews of antiquity also killed their prophets. Most people simply hate to hear the truth. As DesertEagle613 posted above, if they faced reality they would then have to take responsibility for it.

    The Israeli government outlawed Kach, Kahane's party because it quickly garnered the support (10%) of Israeli voters. Kach represented an extreme threat to the secular, socialist power structure and so they demonized and outlawed it. Today, polls indicate that 20% (!) of Israelis support the policies of Kach if only they had a party to vote for. In terms of ensuring the survival of Israel, it is IMO the Isaeli power structure who are the extremists.

    Remember that the American Patriots were only 6% of the poplulation of the colonies and were considered very much extremists.

    Vladimir Jabotinsky, who begged and implored the Jews of pre-holocaust Europe to arm themselves and resist their killers - he was also vilified as "extremist".

    The JDL was listed as a terror organization by the Jew-haters in our Arabist State Dept. which views Israel as an irritant it would gladly sacrifice to further its interests in and curry favor with the Arab world.

    Rabbi Kahane did not, in his later years, BECOME so radical....

    He maintained his vision from the beginning.

    A good part of the motive for American Jews and secular Israelis to hate Kahane was his direct challenge to them as Jews. He was a brilliant Torah scholar and he challenged the watered-down "Judaism" practised by his detractors. He made them very uncomfortable by exposing their "improvements" and "reforms" of G-d's laws. Such "believers", wittingly or not, as they vote in their synagogues whether or not to keep kosher, etc. -- by acting thus such Jews place themselves above G-d (which does make one wonder what EXACTLY kind of G-d they believe in). But they hate anyone who might 'cause them to take even the tiniest peek at this (which is to say at themselves).


    I am not (yet?) a believer. Even so I love those who take their religion seriously and not as something to be added on to their lives (that is if they have the time and it's conveniont, of course).


    It is said that, "If Christ returned today, it is current Christians who would kill him again."


    It is ridiculous, absurd, to watch typical Jews today celebrate Channukah while vilifying a modern Mattisyahu.


    I was always a proud Jew. But I was quite confused and ignorant about what that really meant. Then I read Kahane's books, NEVER AGAIN and WHY BE JEWISH? It was Rabbi Kahane who stoked the barely guttering flame in my Jewish soul into a veritable furnace!

    Rabbi Kahane was a modern Maccabbee and I revere him as such.


    It is written in Talmud: If a man comes to kill you, arise and kill him first.


    Please Rabbi, this is NOT meant as a personal attack.

    But if you feel frustrated with anti-gunners, how can you not feel the same about liberal Jews and their pathetically distorted and naive "views"?

    I implore you to READ Rabbi Meir Kahane's book, THEY MUST GO!. My guess, especially in light of current developments in Israel, in the US and in the world -- is that you will find nothing in it to disagree with.


    And I would be very happy to hear your reaction to this book.



    Shalom achi! (DesertEagle613 taught me to say this)


    matis
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2004
  22. twoblink

    twoblink Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,727
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    I understand that the word "Jew" isn't one size fits all. And I understand that there are different subcultures regardless of race or culture. BUT, it would seem to me that when someone tried to kill my race and wipe my kind out of existance, I would remember it...

    We (Chinese) just celebrated the Mid-Autumn Festival, in which most don't remember why it's celebrated.. and it's sad. Most kids can't, and that's pathetic.. I want to blame it all on the education system, but that's too easy. It's a parental responsibility as well..

    I guess what gets me is the stark contrast, you've got Jews who asks what the heck a concentration camp is, and then you've got the Jews who's the President of his gun club..

    I think people have short memories, and what's the saying "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it..."

    Most think America is the best place on earth, but those views seemed to be held by people who's never been outside the country..

    As far as "That will never happen here..." I'm sure Hunters in NJ,NY,Chicago all use to say that as well...
     
  23. Bulldozer

    Bulldozer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    338
    Location:
    Kansas City Metro
    Well, I'm a politically conservative, gun-toting Jew. My father was a Jewish soldier in WW II and he made damn sure his son and family knew the value of firearms for defense. I intend to pass that knowldge on to my children as well.

    I am always wowed by the "can't happen here" syndrome. If there is one thing that should have been absorbed it is that it can happen anytime, anywhere to anyone.

    The Torah states that we have a duty to protect our lives and those of our loved ones.
     
  24. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,814
    Location:
    Texas
    While I'm definitely not Jewish, I've got a mess of Israeli friends, and know many Jews here in the US. The ones here in the US definitely seem to be more liberal and antigun as a group. The ones over there tend to carry their M16s everywhere they go. :)

    The ones over there live with terrorism on a daily basis and think accordingly. Friend of mine is 28, a daycare school person with 20 kids under her care. And she knows how to use her CAR-15 very, very well... she's a military policewoman in the reserves.


    My boss over here at one time was Jewish.. we drove from L.A to Phoenix on a trip with his kids (he had bad feet, couldn't drive for more than an hour, so I became the chauffeur), and on the drive back, we broke down for a time. He said "don't bring any of your guns". Considering he had a 14,12 and 3 year old along, I guess I can't blame him.

    But now we're broken down way out in the middle of nowhere, for several hours. When I pulled a Kabar out of my bag, he was kind of grateful, since he knew I knew how to use it.

    He's no shooter, but he's a lot less antigun now than he used to be...
     
  25. mondocomputerman

    mondocomputerman Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    540
    Location:
    Kansas City
    One of my favorites:
     

    Attached Files:

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page