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JJFitch Request: 20 steps to achieve sub MOA at 300 yards

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Varminterror, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Avoiding a derailment in another thread, I’m hoping the due conversation can be delivered here:

    @JJFitch commented in another thread the following, but when asked to elaborate and extol the “at least 20 steps,” he referenced, he respectfully pointed out discussing further in that thread would be an unwelcomed derailment, and suggested myself or @doubleh create a thread specifically for his elaboration - so I did, and I’ll look forward to learning these details!

     
  2. murf

    murf Member

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    would love to hear everyone's steps to build a sub moa rifle, too. but this ain't my thread.

    murf
     
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  3. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    Interested and following. I’ve got a handful of rifles that could benefit I’m sure.
     
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  4. 748

    748 member

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    Yeah I would like more to go on that just getting lucky.
     
  5. Nature Boy
    • Contributing Member

    Nature Boy Contributing Member

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    When achieving the holy MOA.....

    Thou shalt count the steps to 20, no more, no less. 20 shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be 20. 21 shalt thou not count, neither count thou 19, excepting that thou then proceed to 20. 30 is right out. Once the number 20, being the 20th number, be reached,
     
  6. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    skip a bit brother
     
  7. JJFitch

    JJFitch Member

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    Just to be clear here are the two posts mentioned above:

    "Considering each rifle is capable of sub 3 inch groups at 100 yards and the wound channel is 4"'s the difference is insignificant.

    Any bolt gun should print sub 1" at 100 yards or the lack of sales will end that model!

    The deal breaker here is the 300 yard reference. The 22 inch barrel in a decent bolt gun makes the difference here.

    Now, when talking about purpose built precision rifles the difference can be insignificant but how accurate can you afford to go? There are at least 20 individual steps necessary to achieve sub MOA and similar accuracy at 300 yards from barrels to triggers to precision fitting parts to glass to ammo to shooter ability.

    Smiles,"

    ""Verminterror" and "doubleh" I answered the OP to the best of my ability!

    To discuss the steps to achieve sub MOA at 300 yards would be hi-jacking this thread I suggest starting another thread, "20 steps to achieve sub MOA at 300 yards"!

    Smiles,"

    For clarity:

    The texts refers to MOA and similar accuracy at 300 yards! Which is not the same as MOA at 300 yards!

    Now to discover steps to achieve MOA and similar accuracy at 300 yards Google: "Building a precision rifle when money isn't a consideration!"

    In my neighborhood start with a $5000 budget for rifle, $3000 for glass and another few thou for perfecting that perfect loaded round! Not everybody is going to pick the same 10-20 or 30 steps.

    All the best,

    Take a kid shooting!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  8. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Uh.... is this guy for real?
    ETA: his post above is edited. I assume the one I quoted was a copy/paste error. Carry on
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  9. Golfanaticshooter

    Golfanaticshooter Member

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    AWESOME reference!
     
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  10. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I have to admit, I’m exceptionally disappointed in this Google reference cop out, since it sure seemed by your statements you were knowledgeable of “at least 20 individual steps necessary to achieve sub MOA and similar accuracy at 300 yards”. I was hoping for education from someone who represented to know these “20 individual steps.”
     
  11. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    ... it takes $8000 to assemble a rifle to shoot sub-MOA (“or similar”) at 300 yards?...

    ...AND A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE to develop the load to accomplish it?

    Guess I’ve been doing this all wrong...
     
  12. Offfhand

    Offfhand Member

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    Speaking of accuracy at 300 yds, It's worth mentioning that this past weekend, at a registered Benchrest tournament in KS, one of the competitors fired a potential 300 yd world record aggregate for Sporter Class Rifles. His score was .6476" for the average of 5-5shot groups, the largest group being .780" and the smallest .291" In the Sporter Rifle Class, the rifle. with scope, can weigh no more than 10.5 lbs. The shooter's name is Dave Brooks, and if I wanted to know more about 300 yd accuracy I think Dave is the person I would want to ask.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  13. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Me too.

    Shooting sub MOA at 300 yards isn't all that difficult with far less that a 5K rifle, a 3K scope, and far less than thousands of dollars of load development of do it.

    This MPA Competition Ready Rifle (2019 edition) was 3K total money including stock, action, barrel, glass, mount, brake, mag. I bought 300 new brass, but used once fired factory brass to work up three acceptable loads and shot a one day PRS match with it this weekend shooting out to 1004 yards (Yep, hit that one). It is easily a sub MOA 300 yard rifle. I have some firings on used brass, some primers, some powder, and less than 150 bullets invested to get loads that do this.
    20200108_150128.jpg
    IMG_1764.JPG
    IMG_1766a.JPG
     
  14. marksman13

    marksman13 Member

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    My Bergara Ridgeback was less than $2K and will shoot 1/2 MOA at 500 yards with cheap Federal Non-Typical ammo. I spent $800 on the Zeiss Conquest V-4 that is sitting on top of it. I suppose I just got extremely lucky? Wait, my Bergara HMR Wilderness in 6.5 CM does the same thing with Federal GMM 130 gr ammo for just under $1K. My Falkor Defense Omega was just north of $5K with the Vortex Razor on top of it and it will do the same. I suppose I’m just living right...
     
  15. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    So I'm wondering if you had to rob the bag man for the mob to pay for it ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    No way man, no way, they just kill you. ;)
     
  17. Steve S.

    Steve S. Member

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    I am an educated but simple man; I started reading this thread and I must have crossed some strange boundary when I got about a third of the way down - speaking in tongues? rapper?, inside joke?, - what in the hail are you talking about?????
     
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  18. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    I'm pretty sure I didn't spend 1000 on my first 300 yd moa group......rifle and scope barely broke $500, bipod was maybe $15, had brass on hand, load workup was good the first ladder we tried. Maybe I misunderstood something?
    My steps:
    1. Get out of bed (this includes morning routine, shower, coffee etc).
    2. Grab rifle.
    3. Grab ammo.
    4. Go to safe location to shoot.
    5. Set up targets at various distances.
    6. Dial in/holdover for wind/distances.
    7. Activate bangswitch.
    8. Repeat step 7 as often as needed to enjoy the day.

    Maybe I've been doing this wrong for a long time......but I sure hope no one tells my rifles this because they aren't aware of my mistake yet!
     
  19. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    i think i can get it down to 5 steps if you have some room on your credit card
    1. buy 5 ruger precision rifles in 308 or 6.5cm, and quality scopes, and fed gm match 308 ammo or hornady 6.5cm ammo
    2. mount scopes and properly adjust them and rifle to shooter
    3. shoot three 5 round groups with each rifle
    4. select the rifle that shoots best
    5. sell the other 4

    alternate methods:
    buy 10 rem700s, sell 9 of them
    buy 1 impact from stuteville precision
     
  20. Nature Boy
    • Contributing Member

    Nature Boy Contributing Member

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    Here’s a real world example of how to get there for less with one extra step and do even better than sub MOA at 300 yards.

    1. Buy 1 Savage model 12
    2. Buy 1 Shilen match barrel, .233, 1:7 twist, throated for 90g VLDs
    3. Buy a used Nightforce BR scope. You’ll end up with something that looks like this for under $1,500

    eF2mYwr.jpg

    4. Develop a load using Varget and Berger 90g VLDs (~24.3g). You’ll get 5 shot groups at 100 yards that look like this:

    A0KUq6z.jpg

    5. Put a 16 year old boy behind the trigger and give him some practice time at 500 yards.

    VDpo7Mb.jpg

    T39LpCq.png

    6. Take same 16 year old boy to some NRA F Class matches. Keep 98% of 240 consecutive rounds for record inside 1 MOA at 600 yards and make NRA High Master



    RWsaWZy.jpg

    31F3D2DB-E81C-4D5E-B2C6-850F8CE15549.jpeg
     
  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    It turned into a bit of an inside joke, I suppose, but it really didn’t have to be.

    A member extolled “20 individual steps to achieve sub MOA or similar at 300 yards” in another thread, but when called to the mat to list them, he first punted by suggesting THIS thread be created for him to share his “20 individual steps” without derailing the other thread (rightfully and respectfully so). So I created it to beckon his knowledge, and he punted yet again by suggesting we Google “building a precision rifle,” and claiming it costs $5000 for the rifle, $3000 for the scope, and “another few thou” in cost to develop a load to “achieve sub-MOA or similar at 300 yards.”

    So being deprived of the knowledge promised, several users are instead having a little satirical fun in what became a playground thread.

    In fairness to @JJFitch, I suppose his “build an $8000 rig and spend another few thou in load development” indeed IS a list of steps to “achieve sub-MOA or similar at 300 yards,” but it ain’t 20 steps, and it sure doesn’t make sense to any folks that have done it. I felt that was a rather insulting cop out by @JJFitch to pretend achieving sub-MOA accuracy is simply cost prohibitive for most folks. Certainly an $8000 rig with thousands of dollars spent in load development SHOULD shoot sub-MOA at 300, but it’s definitely not the only way.

    Within the veil of satire, I appreciate folks like @taliv, @Walkalong, @horsey300, and @Nature Boy for sharing alternative paths which are far more sensible. (*note - I’ll point out here the paths a couple of these guys yields sub-MOA performance MUCH farther than 300. Holding sub-MOA at 500+ certainly isn’t trivial, as it nearly is at 300, and the rifles and loads @taliv, @Walkalong, and @Nature Boy are talking about will do it).

    Personally, if someone asked me the “20 steps to achieve sub-MOA at 300 yards,” I’d also point out A) there aren’t 20 steps, and B) there are lots of ways to skin that cat. I’d offer reloading as the best shortcut in that path - factory ammo can do if, but it takes longer, offers less control, and costs more than common load development. I’d be confident I could achieve consistent sub-MOA results at 300yrds.

    1) Buy one or two rifles off of the shelf whether Rem 700’s, Savage 10/12’s, Tikka T3’s, Ruger American, Precision, or Hawkeye, or Win 70’s (knowing my luck isn’t so bad that it would take THREE rifles to avoid two lemons)

    2) Float the barrels and bed the action

    3) Mount a ~$500-800 Bushnell, Burris, Leupold, Vortex, etc scope, preferably 4-16x44 or larger

    4) Develop a load within 100 rounds which holds “sub-MOA or similar at 300yrds”

    Unlike the Path to Paradise, the Gate is not strait and the Way is not narrow in the pursuit of sub-MOA at 300 yards.
     
  22. HB

    HB Member

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    Most people couldn’t shoot a 10 shot 3” group at 300 yards to save their life. Especially with a rifle that weighs under 10 lbs.
     
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  23. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    Most people don't know their rifle weighs under 10 lbs
     
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  24. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Statistically, most people don’t own a rifle.
     
  25. HB

    HB Member

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    Astute observation
     
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