Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

JMB's 1911

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by SquirrelNuts, Dec 24, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SquirrelNuts

    SquirrelNuts Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,070
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    I always read about how the 1911 is not exactly what Browning wanted. I know this may cause a little trouble, but does anyone know what he wanted? It is not possible to know what a person is thinking or wants, but did he write any of it down?

    -SquirrelNuts
     
  2. burrhead

    burrhead Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    695
    Location:
    Chihuahuan desert
    There are probably other things but, JMB's design did not originally have a thumb safety. It was mandated by the military.
     
  3. Erik Jensen

    Erik Jensen Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    Detroit. um... Dogg.
    actually, I believe the *grip* safety was mandated by the military?
     
  4. burrhead

    burrhead Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    695
    Location:
    Chihuahuan desert
    Nope, thumb safety. After a few horses got capped in the fanny the brass wanted something more than just a grip safety.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2002
  5. Erik Jensen

    Erik Jensen Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    Detroit. um... Dogg.
    weird... ok, now I know.. heh.
     
  6. C.R.Sam

    C.R.Sam Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Chino Valley, AZ., USA
    According to his biographer John Browning...(eldest son)

    What he wanted was another sale.
    Assorted iterations of two guns were offered.
    What the Army selected; the Army declared the 1911.

    Sam
     
  7. Jim V

    Jim V Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Michigan
    Yep, what he wanted was the sale. He designed the pistol to meet the military's specs for the new pistol. The thumb safety was added at their request. If they had wanted the pistol to play "Jingle Bells", JMB would have figured how to make it do it.
    It was part of his genius that the pistol came out so well that it served for 80 years as standard issue and is still being used by various units.
     
  8. C.R.Sam

    C.R.Sam Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Chino Valley, AZ., USA
    And another part of his genious was that he was a very astute and successful businessman.

    Sam
     
  9. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Colt actually first tried to sell the army the 38 ACP autoloader that it currently manufactured. When military demanded 45 cal w/ 200 gr bullet (IIRC) Browning tried to adapt the two link design to the larger ctg but the links kept breaking.

    Browning came up with the idea of the one link/bushing combo and made a 45. I believe it was called the 1905 Model and marketed by Colt's. There were a lot of steps between that gun and the one that was finally adopted as the M1911 US Army. Lots of the ideas came from the army, as you noted. Quite fascinating story.
     
  10. Archer

    Archer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    UT, USA
    I do find myself occasionally wondering what the P35 would have been, had Browning lived to complete it.

    Browning intended to design a simpler pistol, easier to manufacture, but improved in several ways over the 1911.

    If Browning had lived to complete the project, I imagine it might have been a bit larger, sans magazine and grip safeties, single-stack, and chambered in a serious caliber.

    Other items in Browning's original designs included a striker rather than a hammer, the substitution of a connecting bar for the trigger stirrup of the 1911, and the substitution of a cam block for the pivoting link.

    A key to the design was a more modular approach eliminating all tool requirements for assembly or disassembly (although an original 1911 requires nothing more than a .45 ACP cartridge to initiate complete disassembly)

    The P35 realized part of the Browning simplification goals, eliminating a couple of items that are troubling to some on the 1911 (barrel bushing and plunger tube, for example) but was truly a product of F.N. designer Diedudonné J. Saive. It was Saive who was largely responsible for the minor caliber, mag safety, spurred hammer, and double-column magazine.

    It seems that FN was smart enough to realize the Browning reputation would sell the pistol better than if it had been called the "Saive Grande Puissance."

    One wonders what might have become of the 1911, had the P35 been chambered in .45 ACP.
     
  11. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    I always have a silent laugh when I see that the 9mm is considered by some not to be a "serious" caliber......
     
  12. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    9,689
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    Apparently what JMB thought was ideal was his original submission of his 1905 version in 1906. I read somewhere that the military mandated some 40+ changes to the gun.

    So the result that many of us consider as the work of genius of JMB is not so much a gun that JMB would have designed for himself, but something of a stepchild gun beset with compromises, improvements, and detractions required by the military.

    Along the longs of what JMB wanted and nobody knowing, nobody seems to know if he really did mean for the gun to be carried in Condition 1 or Condition 3, or even if he had a specific opinion on the matter. What JMB intended is lost to history on such matters.
     
  13. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Archer, it is interesting to speculate exactly what Moses was thinking as he built his Gran Puissance, but he was first and foremost a salesman who tailored his work to the buyer's specifications. The HP was built to try to win a French contract and he could not break his agreements with Colt and FN so he had to use other means to gain the ends. The 45 Auto, imho, is a better overall design than the HP as much as others like it.

    The French, in typical Gallic fashion, chose the Petter designed 32 French Longue (same as 30 Pederson, BTW) 35A and 35S, IIRC. Why am I not surprised?
     
  14. Jim V

    Jim V Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Michigan
    BigG, the Colt 1905 still had the dual links. Several were submitted for testing but they failed. One thing that Browning really had going for him in the US trials, the military wanted his design to win.

    Lots of information at: http://www.m1911.org
     
  15. Brian D.

    Brian D. Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    SW Ohio
    More good history of the 1911:

    Handguns Of The World I think the book is called, by Edward Ezell. Gives me a kick in the pants to realize that both the U.S. and Great Britain had looked kinda seriously at the Luger a few years before. Both nations felt the caliber was too small, but liked it well otherwise. The Brits were also a bit "auto-phobic", as one of their higher ranking military firearms-testing officers had been killed in an accident when he'd apparently inadvertently dropped the piece. Even though it happened to be a revolver that had discharged, their pistol trials folk were leery of just about all advances in design for some years. Especially if there wasn't a rebounding hammer, or manual hammer blocking device installed. Humorously, they stopped doing pistol trials for a while about 1911, right before Colt sent out their newest design for evaluation by the world. Kept using Webleys til after WW2 I believe.
     
  16. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Care to share your reasons why, mine are exactly opposite....
     
  17. RustyHammer

    RustyHammer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,335
    Location:
    Louisiana


    .... a Ruger?

    :D ;) :p :cool: :)
     
  18. Archer

    Archer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    UT, USA
    Wildalaska says:

    This is an old subject and the matter has long been resolved. It is why those with more serious needs than the average rent-a-cop- people such as the FBI HRT, LAPD SWAT, USMC MEU(SOC) and many others choose to use the .45 when they given a choice.

    The truth is, NO handgun caliber is adequate in a situation in which you really need to stop a fight. However, the .45 is clearly less inadequate than the parabellum round.
     
  19. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Sorry, I dont think so....

    And the 9mm is used by such lightwieghts as Israeli Commandos and police, SAS and GSG9, among others. Im sure the Israeli's take down more armed adversaries in a month that FBI HRT and LAPD Swat take down in a year...

    Guess it depends on your choice of loads. Regardless, this was all brought about by a poster referring to the 9mm as not a "serious caliber"

    PS...as the proud holder of a CCW since the early 80s in NY, Florida, Penn and Alaska, I usually carry a 45...but I never feel unarmed with my custom 9mm HP...
     
  20. Jim V

    Jim V Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    155
    Location:
    Michigan
    C.R.Sam, the salesman in the Browning family was JM's brother Matt.
     
  21. Orion

    Orion Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    110
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    *Snifffffffffffff* (ahhhhh)

    I just love the smell of controversy in the morning.

    Simply put in locker room talk everyone can understand.

    (Me holding a .45acp cartridge and you holding a 9mm cartridge)

    Mines bigger than yours!
     
  22. C.R.Sam

    C.R.Sam Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Chino Valley, AZ., USA
    Jim...
    Agree.
    Mat seemd to have the people skills.
    John seemed to have the business flair.

    Probably a mix tho.

    Sam
     
  23. makarov

    makarov Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    336
    Guns designed now under a 10 round mag limit see an advantage to larger caliber bullets. Prior to this limit the high capacity 9mm has some advantages too. This debate will never be resolved. Military applications probably see an advantage to 15 rounds of 9mm or more in a magazine. I personally think the CZ-75 is the most evolved combat pistol. Proven accurate design.
     
  24. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,616
    Location:
    Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
    (Me holding a .50AE)

    Not likely...
     
  25. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    I still subscribe to the big heavy bullet theory as confirmed by CPT Thompson in the army trials.

    Dr. Walt Welch, an emergency room physician with 20 years experience, said to use the biggest caliber you can control and punch holes in major organs until the BG stops resisting. He also said there is no practical terminal performance difference between bullet types from FMJ to all the defensive whatsis at handgun velocities (except price and hype). I agree more with his experience than all the mag articles and gelatin shooters. YMMV
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page