John Moses Browning

[Jim Watson]

I usually refer to him as Mr. Browning.

 

[WestKentucky]

I may get the ban hammer for this, but, I think that the man was much less than the legend. Yes he did some good things and brought us several firearms which are very well respected but none were really significant technological breakthroughs so to speak.

His biggest contribution was the 1911 and it was a great weapon...but it was built to a procurement spec sheet.

In shotguns the rem11/a5 was a huge success but it was essentially the same tech as the Winchester 1911 autoloader, only the a5/11 has a cocking handle.

Browning rifles were somewhat less desirable and much more clunky than their competition. The military contracts were impressive mainly in that they did function and were durable.

JMB did start the BHP but he died long before it was finished. The design can hardly be called his.

If you compare the contributions made by JMB to those of Oliver Winchester, Horace Smith, Daniel B Wesson, Hiram Maxim, Mauser, Savage.... you suddenly see that JMB did little more than combine existent technologies into durable and functional guns. If he hadn’t done so, somebody else would have. Same can be said for Sam Colt, and Remington. Were they all engineers who contributed to our interest, absolutely, but each of them was just a man leading a company in times where technology was advancing quickly.

 

[Shimitup]

Perhaps had a habit of coming down the mountain with his engineering drawings engraved on stone tablets.

 

[rskent]

My guess is that it was started to differentiate the father from the son.

You mean John from Johnathan?

 

[rskent]

Does it really matter that much to you?

You know, sometimes I just find things humorous.

 

[Mizar]

Hmmm, let me see: Auto 5 was introduced in 1902, while Winchester 1911 in... Wait for it... 1911. So, I believe it's correct to say that Winchester was the same as Auto 5, not vise versa.
John Moses designed also the following, more or less "iconic" firearms (that list is taken from www.browning.com):

Single-Shot Rifle:
Winchester 1885

Bolt-Action Rifle:
Winchester 1900

Lever-Action Rifles:
Winchester 1886
Winchester 1892
Winchester 1894
Winchester 1895

Slide-Action Rifles:
Winchester 1890

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Rifles:
Remington Model 8 and 81

Blowback-Operated Semi-Automatic Rifles:
Browning 22 Semi-auto

Double-Barrel Shotgun:
Browning Superposed

Lever-Action Shotgun:
Winchester 1887

Slide-Action Shotguns:
Winchester 1897
Remington Model 17 (later the Ithaca 37)
Stevens 520

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Shotguns:
Browning Auto 5 / Remington Model 11

Blowback-Operated Semi-Automatic Pistols:
FN M1900
Colt 1903/1908 Pocket Hammerless
FN 1906 Vest Pocket/Colt 1908 Vest Pocket
FN 1910
Colt Woodsman .22

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Pistols:
Colt 1902
Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer
U.S. M1911
FN G.P. 35 Hi Power*
*We got that sorted out long ago.


Gas-Operated Machine Guns:
Colt M1895
U.S. M1918 BAR

Recoil-Operated Machine Guns:
U.S. M1917/M1919
U.S. M2 Heavy Machine Gun

Automatic Machine Cannon:
Colt Browning 37mm

you suddenly see that JMB did little more than combine existent technologies into durable and functional guns. If he hadn’t done so, somebody else would have.

Every gun designer does that to some degree, but to say that John Browning did only that is pure blasphemy. As for the "somebody else" part - in History there is no "if". Never. He did it and got the credit he deserved, end of story.

 

[Officers'Wife]

People refer to his middle name for a variety of reasons and some for no reason at all. Mister Browning was an engineer of incredible talent. That talent has earned him accolades and fame even beyond the grave. Keep in mind that his contribution to man is the very reason that many of us on this board are even here. If not for the M2 light machine gun, my grandfather's body would be lying somewhere in France since 1945 or so and I would never have been born.

John Moses Browning also needs to be given a nod to the heroism of others. When Audie Murphy climbed onto a burning tank destroyer and forced a line of German infantry to waiver and retreat forcing the enemy tanks to withdraw after losing their infantry support, John Moses Browning was there in the form of the 50 caliber heavy machine gun that provided him the deadly accuracy and unwavering dependability that was more than a match for Murphy's bravery and valor.

There are many in my neighborhood that when you say the Holy Trinity, they will respond with Colt, Garand and Browning. Perhaps, if we include the Moses in his name as a nod to all the people that carried the products of his invention to free the oppressed. For as surely as Moses led the Israelites from oppression in Egypt, the products of John Moses Browning were instrumental in freeing oppressed people throughout the world.

 

[Ryanxia]

Because he's JOHN MOSES BROWNING!

 

[WestKentucky]

Single-Shot Rifle: along with every other gun designer in the world...
Winchester 1885

Bolt-Action Rifle: Mauser was better and earlier
Winchester 1900

Lever-Action Rifles: Henry designs that were improved upon. Hard to give more credit than to say he made it function better.
Winchester 1886
Winchester 1892
Winchester 1894
Winchester 1895

Slide-Action Rifles: give him some credit here I guess. Maybe.
Winchester 1890

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Rifles: same concept as the auto 5 but for some reason a totally different design. Still the same technology though.
Remington Model 8 and 81

Blowback-Operated Semi-Automatic Rifles:
Browning 22 Semi-auto

Double-Barrel Shotgun: as if double barrels hadn’t been around in muzzle loading days. Yay, let’s turn the barrels sideways. Gimme a break. I
Browning Superposed

Lever-Action Shotgun: again, essentially copied technology from one thing to another.
Winchester 1887

Slide-Action Shotguns: again, along with everybody else. Win 97 isn’t all that special as it is similar to many such as the marlin design.
Winchester 1897
Remington Model 17 (later the Ithaca 37)
Stevens 520

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Shotguns: known as first successful autoloading shotgun, not the first autoloader. Improved tech, not new tech.
Browning Auto 5 / Remington Model 11

Blowback-Operated Semi-Automatic Pistols: I will give a little credit here, there were major steps forward, but everybody was making those steps at the same time. That’s why you have so many various designs in ww1. They all worked and they all did it pretty independently of the others.
FN M1900
Colt 1903/1908 Pocket Hammerless
FN 1906 Vest Pocket/Colt 1908 Vest Pocket
FN 1910
Colt Woodsman .22

Recoil-Operated Semi-Automatic Pistols: same as blowback. What was so special and different?
Colt 1902
Colt 1903 Pocket Hammer
U.S. M1911
FN G.P. 35 Hi Power*
*We got that sorted out long ago.


Gas-Operated Machine Guns: again my point is that they functioned but so did other guns and others. Browning designs were just more robust and more durable.
Colt M1895
U.S. M1918 BAR

Recoil-Operated Machine Guns: more durable. M2 is a standout here in that it is still in use, and was a step forward in tech.
U.S. M1917/M1919
U.S. M2 Heavy Machine Gun

Automatic Machine Cannon: I know nothing of that one so I can’t comment on it.
Colt Browning 37mm

Response is in the quote

 

[Mizar]

I'm sorry, but saying that lever-action rifles/shotguns are all based on Henry's design just because they are all lever operated, is like saying that an AK47 is just a Russian copy of the StG 44, or that every bolt action rifle is a copy of Mauser 98... And "what was so special" about the tilting barrel locked breach semi-auto pistol and comparing it to a simple blowback design... I don't know - you tell me. Tell me why the first practical design, that is still used in more than 90% of all modern semi-auto pistols after more than 100 years, is nothing to write home about... I'll just stop here, there's no point continuing.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

You know, sometimes I just find things humorous.

you know I was just picking on you.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I may get the ban hammer for this, but, I think that the man was much less than the legend. Yes he did some good things and brought us several firearms which are very well respected but none were really significant technological breakthroughs so to speak.

His biggest contribution was the 1911 and it was a great weapon...but it was built to a procurement spec sheet.

In shotguns the rem11/a5 was a huge success but it was essentially the same tech as the Winchester 1911 autoloader, only the a5/11 has a cocking handle.

Browning rifles were somewhat less desirable and much more clunky than their competition. The military contracts were impressive mainly in that they did function and were durable.

JMB did start the BHP but he died long before it was finished. The design can hardly be called his.

If you compare the contributions made by JMB to those of Oliver Winchester, Horace Smith, Daniel B Wesson, Hiram Maxim, Mauser, Savage.... you suddenly see that JMB did little more than combine existent technologies into durable and functional guns. If he hadn’t done so, somebody else would have. Same can be said for Sam Colt, and Remington. Were they all engineers who contributed to our interest, absolutely, but each of them was just a man leading a company in times where technology was advancing quickly.

Sometimes it’s not how brilliant you are but what you accomplish.

Contrary to what some believe Henry Ford didn’t invent the assembly line. He just perfected it for mass production of complex object aka cars and trucks.

We can study and debate Browings brilliance, and what his contributions mean, but there is something significant of an object designed over 100 years ago that’s basically unchanged. It’s even more incredible that there are few newer designs that are superior.

In other words the 1911 may not be perfect but it’s still highly regarded and used. And attempts to make something better often include many design features such as grip angle.

So I’d contend Browning may not be the best weapons designer of all time but he’s clearly in an elite group and some could argue he is and have very many points to support their argument.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Not just parents - on occasion my wife uses my middle name, loudly, and through gritted teeth.

So...sometimes she addresses you as .308 NORMA Magnum??

 

[Ed4032]

Or Robert E Lee?

I think his friends just called him Bob...

 

[Mizar]

Let's play a game, shall we (because I'm bored at work)? I will present some simple facts and leave the comments to our fellow members:
1. Oliver Winchester never invented a firearm.
2. Horace Smith & Daniel B Wesson did not introduce the first cartridge revolver.
3. Hiram Maxim did not invented the first automatic machine gun.
4. Mauser brothers did not invented the bolt action cartridge rifle.
5. Adam Savage did not invented the lever action, only the hammerless lever action, but we all know that his rifle is just a copy of the Volcanic repeating rifle...

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Since we are talking trash, I'd just like to say that everyone calls him John Moses Browning to compensate for that fact that he was an inferior weapons "drawer" to both:

1. Eugene "The-Big-Gene" Stoner
2. Jean "Is-Actually-Canadian" Garand

 

[Wisco]

I do love my 1903 Pocket Hammerless and an M2 probably saved my life once, but I like to keep things familiar, being the egalitarian I am, so it’s usually just Browning for me.

I also call almost everyone by their first or last name. If they insist on formality or titles, I usually just avoid them in the future.

That said, call him John Moses Browning if you’re not into the whole brevity thing.

 

[Jim Watson]

If you compare the contributions made by JMB to those of Oliver Winchester, Horace Smith, Daniel B Wesson, Hiram Maxim, Mauser, Savage....

Let's do.
Oliver Winchester: He didn't design anything, he organized and funded a company based on Smith and Wesson's design with improvements by Henry and King. His successors bought a lot of Browning designs, including some snapped up just to keep them away from competitors.
Horace Smith and D.B. Wesson designed the toggle link action that got Winchester started, then concentrated on revolvers, and very successfully, too.
Hiram Maxim designed the machine gun that everybody but the US and France used. What else?
Savage designed a fine lever action rifle. What else? His pistols were made on the Searle action.
Peter Paul Mauser came up with the solid head bolt rifle and staggered box magazine, but his other products were largely designed by employees like the Federle brothers and Jos. Nickl.

So if you count business acumen, Mr Browning was not a tycoon, but he kept several of them busy.

Oh, and what was Mr Browning's opinion? He was heard to say that John Pedersen was the best gun designer in the business.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

However he is called the man was most certainly a genius.
His designs have endured for over a century and are the foundation for many "new" firearms.
I'm sure most here know that many of his guns were never produced. Winchester bought up his patents to keep them from the competition.

 

[WestKentucky]

So I’d contend Browning may not be the best weapons designer of all time but he’s clearly in an elite group and some could argue he is and have very many points to support their argument.

That’s essentially the point I was trying to make. Yes he’s a great engineer and was a good businessman (although he sold his patents and designs rather than produce them, debatable which was more lucrative for him as a manufacturer). Yes he took several technologies and made very significant improvements on them. He was truly an incredible engineer, but an inventor he was not. He brought about great weapons, by improving existing technology.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am having a hard time seeing what existing technology he merely improved, other than his first patented product, best known as the Winchester High Wall, which was advertised as having "the strong Sharps breechblock."
What does the dropping, then tipping barrel of his automatic pistols improve on? I contend that is an invention. The patent office agreed, there and a lot of other places.

 

[mljdeckard]

I was in Ogden yesterday, I drove past his mansion.

Several years ago, it was for sale for a few million dollars, it's not in a great part of town. I remember thinking, "How great would it be to buy Browning's house, and tinker with guns there?"

 

[Swifty Morgan]

According to the PTO, an improvement on an invention is an invention. But I understand the distinction people draw between improvements and inventions cut from whole cloth.

 

[rbernie]

Yes he took several technologies and made very significant improvements on them. He was truly an incredible engineer, but an inventor he was not.

But that's what all inventors do - they extend the existing art in ways that make the technology consumable and/or producable in product form.

Scientists create the initial art; inventors (aka engineers) make it practical.

 

[Mizar]

Contrary to the popular belief, radical firearm inventions (like "Neva seen before!") are very seldom happening out of nowhere. There will always be older systems that already had some of the features. For instance, let's go back to that lever actions for a moment - Smith & Wesson didn't invent the breech loading lever action rifle. They worked and improved on the Lewis Jennings rifle, which was an improved version of the Volitional Repeater designed by Walter Hunt. And even earlier in that century was the percussion Colt ring lever rifle... If we take a closer look at Winchester 1866 (Henry action) and compare it to the 1886 model (designed by Browning) we will see some very different operating mechanisms. Sure, they are both lever operated and fed from a tubular magazine, but that's it - Browning's bolt and locking system is far different (and superior) then the toggle link Henry bolt.

S&W model 1 revolver, "The first successful fully self-contained cartridge revolver available in the world." was not the first actually - Casimir and Eugene Lefauchex introduced the model 1854 pinfire revolver two years before S&W began production of their wimpy Model 1. Not to mention that the pinfire cartridge, invented by the same Lefauchex, predates the .22 Rimfire (based on the Flobert cartridge) by about 20 years.

Glock "Safe action" mechanism shows a striking similarities to the Roth-Steyr firing mechanism from 1907.

We can continue on and on about this, but I believe that I made my point...