Judge Opinions

[Strykervet]

a "fad/ gimmick" that had made taurus a whole boat load of money. and if it was a fad smith wouldnt have copied it

i don't like taurus particularly but i do like my judge

it sits in my console as a truck gun when i'm in the barrio. shot pattern of 000 buck at driver side window doesnt matter at 2 feet. thats a big ole barrel to look down on the business end...

in the words of borat "i feel like dirty harold"

Are you kidding? Smith and Wesson copies everyone these days. They still have their revolver line, and I really hope they don't drop it to copy Taurus, which I wouldn't put past them these days.

They dropped a whole line of great pistols, the 3rd gen. autos, in order to copy Glock. They got sued for the Sigma, which was a complete ripoff. Now they make AR's and 1911's. Sure, they are a fad company now. They will make whatever is selling the most at the moment, and right now, it is AR's and affordable 1911's. Now the Judge is selling well, and since Smith has a huge revolver manufacturing capability and a name to go with them, it only sounds reasonable that they'd jump on that wagon too.

I wish they'd bring the 3rd gens back, make a 4th gen mabye.

As for the Judge, I think it is gimmicky for one main reason: size. Their commercial (well, Smith and Wesson's commercial I think) has a lady get approached by two "bad guys" in a parking garage and she slips it out of her purse --it is half the size of her purse, try getting your wife to carry something like that-- and then, "BOOM, BOOM, BOOM" and they show some cantaloupes getting blown apart. Whatever.

So all effectiveness aside, and I do think .45LC and those new .410 shells they've designed for it are indeed effective (although the .45LC would be MORE effective out of a .45LC revolver) the size of the thing makes it a no-go. You can't conceal carry this thing! That is why the commercial has a woman pulling it from a purse!

For snakes and whatnot, I think most folks generally use something else already. Like a traditional shotgun or whatever they are carrying that they feel appropriate for the environment they are in. Now if you want a toy and a plinker and this is what you want, it most certainly would be an excellent snake pistol, no doubt about it.

Seriously, if you get one of these, it needs to be because you want a toy. There are much better defense tools for HD, like an M4 or a shotgun, and for carry, I'd carry just about anything else first, but I'd carry this before the Desert Eagle or the .500magnum. But I wouldn't carry any of those to begin with, they are not practical at all, and neither is this. Too big for carry, too "small" for HD. For banging away in the field? Just right.

So simply put, if this appeals to your defense criteria, get a snub .45LC for carry, a 12ga. pump for HD, and save the Judge for fun.

They've really put some marketing genius behind this thing. They are selling it as a true defensive tool. The ads, the names, the new shells. When it came out in the late 80's or 90's, it was called the "Thunder (Five or Six)" and it had no additional marketing hype and it only used commonly available .45LC and .410. So basically, without being TOLD how to view it, people viewed it as what it was: an impractical weapon or as a toy. It flopped.

What I would like to see, and it would be mostly a toy as well, is one of these things chambered in 20ga. with a long barrel and a stock. That would be a fun toy. Maybe with a .22mag revolver built in too. Seriously, I think it would be a cool toy.

 

[wrs840]

i used to own two Judges, still own one, both 3"bbl, the one I kept is an Ultralite.

Never had a hitch with either in mechanical function, but the performance of the platform is poor. A 4"bbl .38 or .357 is much better for everything. You can kill snakes just fine with one of those Speer Shotloads. My Judge only comes out to loan to friends who still think they want one... ...the novelty wears off really quickly.

Buy a used S&W M10 or M64 and you'll have a way better gun for way less money.

 

[Ala Dan]

Taurus Judge

Not what its cracked up to be, IMHO~!

 

[oldfool]

cannot help but notice how many advocates of da' Judge rely so heavily upon

A) snakes.. omygawd ! (like they were Grizz or zombies)
B) intimidation bore size like it was magically 145 caliber viewed from muzzle end
(which 44 sp/mag, 45 acp, 45LC "only", or a measly 380/9mm/38/357 bore is so obviously not)
C) 2 feet up all the way to a whopping 10 feet for SD, 7 yards for cottontail wabbit... but a whole 35 yards with a 45LC "snubbie" hit on slow unwary piggies (pretty good for such a short sight radius... if miss piggie ain't too biggie nor in a foul mood and moving quick at you, I guess.. but you do get five tries unless the first three are for hard charging snake defense)
D) the stunning penetration & instant stopping power of so very few buckshot vs. 38+p, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp, 45LC, 9mm, 10mm, 44sp/mag, etc.
E) the convenience of carry in the center console of a vehicle, so lacking in any of the aforementioned centerfire calibers

and.. snakes.. and snakes.. and snakes
(thank goodness some gunmaker finally solved that problem)

 

[Skribs]

4-5 pellets of 0.36" diameter vs. 1 shot of semi-reliable expansion that may be anywhere from ~0.36" to 0.7" (000-buck vs. an expanding 9mm/.38/.357 round)...there is something to say about the extra shots.
At SD ranges, they will offer enough penetration (more just means they fly farther past the exit wound), so I think the tradeoff is good there. If you're beyond that range, you won't likely have a good excuse for SD unless the attacker is armed. Due to that and it's size, probably not a good carry gun, but useful for the car (when the attacker is close enough to bang on the window) or in the house (unless used down the hallway).

I don't encounter snakes where I live, but where they are a problem, if they're close enough to strike I'd want to take one down quick. If it's close enough to strike, then you're in effective range with the judge.

I haven't seen many people say "bore size" as a good reason.

The convenience in a console is because those other calibers make 1 hole at a time, and require you to aim precisely to hit the target. With this, you're bound to hit some vitals. I've seen plenty of police videos of shootouts under 10 feet where they both empty a clip and hit nothing, so even from the driver's seat to the passenger door, being able to hit the target is important.

 

[oldfool]

inquiring minds just want to know and cannot resist asking... durn it

them "new & improved" special powder/special projectile loads in 410 shells
ever wonder what they do/don't do out of a minimum legal length smooth bore 410 shotgun ?
(vs. a 'snubbie' revolver)
pattern too doggone tight for sudden snake attack ?
and how is that penetration, with say 3" buckshot shells ?
or them extra special 'disk' special powder loads (anything like a load of thin dimes) ?
and what do it do to an aggressive watermelon ?

PS
missing from the drivers seat to the passenger door is pretty scary (especially when the attacker is close enough to bang on the window) , acknowledged
although 10 feet is pretty hard to come by in any vehicle I own
hitting the target do count for a whole lot at whatever distance
if buckshot makes you feel safer about missing at 10 feet or less, choose buckshot, maybe with a flared muzzle
(shucks, maybe LE will wise up and dump them Glocks, given sufficient evidence in favor of)

if that snake be close enough to strike, consider stepping back s-l-ow-l-y
or just practice out speed drawing a rattler in midst of it's strike.. (or mebbe the rattler will ignore sudden hand movements, giving you a jump start)
unless rattler teeth are already embedded in your foot, in which case your foot probably already has problems enuff without buckshot in it
(hmmm... what is the average penetration of rattler fangs vs the penetration of 000 thru a good leather boot ?)

 

[41]

Here is a video of Hickock45 shooting the judge. It seems to be a much better gun than given credit for. If you don't want to watch the whole video, the buckshot starts at about 16 minutes, and the federal 000 copper plated buck shot starts at about 22min. I think that the federal would be the best choice for SD based on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

 

[Guillermo]

Old Fool,

While you are right (as usual) there is one thing that you are not addressing.

A lot of the pro Judge stuff on this thread is guys trying to justify their toys. They might have had to justify it to their wives. *sigh* This is just an extension of that.

Another thing, like the internal lock on Smith revolvers...Darwin may not have much of a chance to prove his theory. After all...the chances of someone needing their gun for self defense is small. And, say a bad guy kicks down the door, the good guy shoots him with a Judge. Big boom and being stung is enough to make most people leave. (I would!!! at high speed)

So let them have their fun.
After all...the Judge goes "boom" and burns gunpowder...so it ain't all bad.

 

[kludge]

While a lot of the Judge specific loads don't have reasonable penetration, the 000-buck loads have been proven to meet the FBI required penetration levels.

So yes, your choice of SD ammo is limitted, but you still have a viable load that produces enough penetration and has a decent spread for SD ranges.

Link?

 

[Skribs]

So...would you guys say that a 12-gauge is a bad defense weapon? Because, at the ranges the particular weapon is intended for, a 12-gauge vs. a rifle will have roughly the same differences as a .410 handgun vs. a standard pistol.

Oldfool, I never said that the .410 has the same penetration potential as a .357. However, in a load designed for SD, you want 12"-15" of penetration. The 000-buck should give you that. So compared to an SD .357 round, the 000-buck will have similar penetration.

I personally have never shot at a live target, so I wouldn't know how accurate I am when the adrenaline is pumping. However, I have seen plenty of police videos where both the cop and the perp empty their magazine from less than ten feet away, and nobody gets hurt.

I'm not saying the Judge is the be-all-end-all of SD. What I am saying is those that say "crappy SD gun" are wrong. It would serve that role very well if loaded with 000-buck.

I do agree that the "Judge Premium SD" loads which include random crap are utterly useless. But standard 000-buck should be fine.

 

[gilgsn]

Like Oldfool, I wonder why snakes have become so aggressive lately.. A stick used to be plenty enough.. I am 44, and have never been threatened by a snake.. I don't know anyone who has been threatened or bitten by a snake either.. Either you see one and step away, or it bites you after you step on it, and it's too late.. You have to give it to gun manufacturers though, it's brilliant marketing: Appeal to a deep rooted fear in most people's psyche and offer them a solution for a few hundred bucks.. Brilliant!

I think the Judge is the answer to a non-existent problem. It lacks accuracy in 45 Colt, and I doubt penetration is enough out of such a short barrel, even with 00. See http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm

Was there a movie featuring the Judge? Because I really can't understand why it is so popular.. Maybe people believe it will blast bad guys away like a Hollywood 12-gauge.. I think it is more likely to piss them off... Not to mention all those pellets missing the target, and ruining someone else's day..

Had I never shot one, I wouldn't be so critical, but I have... And I didn't like the results. You go to Taurus' web site, and there is not one 45Colt-only revolver listed. Same for BFR. TC only has one 45Colt contender, and it's 410 also! What's next, a 45/410 Single action Army? A S&W model 25-45/410? Enough 410 already!

 

[Skribs]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

The Judge, Revisted.

They decided to try it again with all the "Judge OMGBBQ" loads, and found that they all sucked, but that 000-buck worked.

Some snakes, based on species and individual temperment, may be more or less likely to strike based on proximity.

 

[nonseven]

As far as snake effectiveness goes, the Judge is no more effective than 45 colt/44 special CCI shot loads.

I did a test of 10 different guns, at a snake target at 10ft. What you need is pattern density at this distance. The Judges are throwing more lead no doubt, but the patterns are looser than the CCI shotshells. So in a 6" circle, you've got the same number of pellets with a 45/44 shotsell as you do with the judge. The 3" 410 shells didn't improve upon this. More lead, yes, but not but in the 6" circle. Surprisingly, a 22lr shotshell out of a 2" snub had the best pattern density in my test.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So...would you guys say that a 12-gauge is a bad defense weapon? Because, at the ranges the particular weapon is intended for, a 12-gauge vs. a rifle will have roughly the same differences as a .410 handgun vs. a standard pistol.

12 Gauge is more powerful, its a long gun to it produces patterns that are far more useful beyond 10 feet that the judge could dream of. A 12 gauge with buckshot is effective out to 40 yards, Judge is only 10 feet. Its a long gun. What your saying is like saying that AR 15s suck because a AR 15 pistol isn't a good self defense gun.

What advantage does the Judge have over a Regular handgun?

 

[Skribs]

Someone said it in a post on another section, ammo choice flows in this order:
Shot Placement
Penetration
Caliber
Hydrostatic Shock

PLACEMENT
At SD ranges, the Judge will be able to hit the target with all of the pellets. A revolver in .357 magnum will be able to place a round on the target. A 12-gauge will be able to place all rounds on the target. Granted, there will be a wider spread on the Judge, but that makes it more likely that at least one pellet will hit a more vital spot.

PENETRATION
12" of penetration required to effectively deal damage to vital organs. At SD range, there are loads for the Judge that can do this. The revolver and the 12-gauge obviously will, so they all qualify here.

CALIBER
Judge can be loaded with 4 or 5 rounds of 000-buck. 12-gauge typically has 9 pellets of 00-buck loaded for HD use. So 2 shots from the Judge is approximately the same as 1 shot from a 12-gauge.*
Comparing the Judge to a .357, as said above - you have 5 ~.35" holes vs. 1 ~0.7" hole. If you're looking at the diameter of the holes, 1.75 > 0.7. If you're looking at the frontal surface area of the bullet, 0.48 sq in > 0.38 sq in. The permanent wound channel will be bigger than that of a .357.

*You might say "that's like saying that 2 shots from a .22 is the same as 1 from a .45." Well, if the .22 had reliable penetration, I might agree. However, the .22 will not have decent penetration, while buckshot from a Judge will. So I think it's okay to say 1 shot from a 12-gauge = 2 shots from a Judge at SD ranges.

HYDROSTATIC SHOCK
Ok, all of these guns fail to produce the velocity to effectively stop with the shockwave. So it's a wash here.

So, would I rather have a 12-gauge than a Judge? Yes. I'd also rather have it over a .357.
Would I rather have a .357 over a Judge? Outside of SD ranges, yes. If I think I might need to combat another shooter outside the house, I'd rather have a .357. But for car defense or for my fight-to-my-long-gun pistol, I would take a Judge over a .357.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not useless, and it does actually have a small niche where it would be a great option. Outside of that niche, yeah, its effectiveness is going to degrade rapidly. If I wanted a multipurpose gun, I'd rather take something that's going to be much more rounded.

But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

 

[David E]

It's a free country and, so far, there are choices to make in defensive handguns.

I think the Judge is a very poor choice beyond 5 feet using shotshells of any type, but if you don't then by all means, use it.

 

[oldfool]

BTW, I never said da' Judge was useless
G (as usual) is on target; it goes bang, throws lead, and the barrel will probably stay attached to the frame. Extreme few carjackers are brave enough to stand in front of any gun muzzle after the 1st really loud bang at under 10 feet. The window shatter alone will catch their attention. Strive not to miss the window at three feet.

I said what I said in post #6, honest opinion that
usable, yes, good no
which could be stated as "a solution desperately seeking a non-problem to solve"
and claiming that 410 000 is equivalent to X pellets out of a 12 gauge long gun is a pretty l-o-n-g stretch (like patterns and shot density don't count; tell that one to pheasant and quail and turkey and duck hunters)

Throwing five "good penetration" chunks of lead at random, not unlike 15 rounds of spray-n-pray 9mm, might get you one good hit... or not... one chunk of 38 to 45 is best not thrown spray-n-pray either, so if you are really that worried about missing at 2 to 10 feet, the gun you carry just might not be the thing you might ought to be most worried about... if you are likely to miss the target with any gun muzzle point shooting at 10 feet or less, count on fringe hits in just the very right places if you choose to, it's your choice to make, friend

Me, I sometimes drop a 380 acp LCP (a derringer no matter how else labeled) in a coat pocket, and wander about town in casual mode; but only because I don't really worry about myself as much as I might ought to. Because beyond 2 to 10 feet I best pray-a-lot, not just spray-n-pray (and da' Judge don't fit in my coat pocket). It is what it is, it ain't what it ain't. When I do feel the need to "worry" about myself, it won't be a derringer nor a snubbie 410 on my hip. YMMV, you pay your own freight.

Fun guns are fun guns, nothing ever was wrong with that. If I admitted what some of my big-boy-toys are, THR in total would collectively be 'ROTFLMAO'.

mostly..
some things are just harder to not make a little bit of fun of (sorry about all that)
and some things take a mighty lot of justification to be other than just for fun
BUT one thing is certain about what da' Judge really is good for, no doubt about it
It's always good for about a hundred posts anytime things get a little bit slow on a gun forum.

Choose it, use it, be well, shoot well, and always mind your backdrop
(and say a little prayer for yourself every now and then, just don't pray and spray at the same time)

PS
the mods have shown a lot of patience on this one (yet again)
so I am going to quit on this one whist still behind the shot pattern game

 

[weregunner]

Recent testing gives the newer Judge rounds 8 inches to past 13 inches in penetration calibrated gelatin. This is documented in very recent publications.

The areas of destruction in the gelatin were large in size.

However many of you are overlooking the the field use and fun gun issues for which many bought the gun. For general purpose on the farm, at the cottage in the boonies, or for a truck gun the Judge works out well. The owners say so and have the data to back it up. It works for them!

With the newer rounds specifcally for the Judge will be lethal or have a better than average chance to stop an attack. The emphasis is on stop the attack. Groups for buckshot and other projectiles was tight compared to other older rounds.

Recent .45 Colt use showed the velocities to be ot or over 800fps. This is documented by the gun writers as well. No, not +P Colt ammo.
A number of rounds showed that 850fps-900fps was obtained.

Use a .45 Colt round of the right type and in the right place will stop the attack. Isn't the .45 Colt considered one of the King of the Handgun Rounds from yester-year and still a viable round today? Yes it is! So yes. At very close range out to 10-15 yards the Judge rounds can cause serious wounds that can stop an attack.

At close up to about 25 yards the .45 Colt is a force to be reckoned with. There are also many more .45 Colt loads that are available than ever before. This gives the .45 Colt some versatility.

Granted, I would rather and do have a plethora of different revolvers ( and I do) to that can do the job of stopping an attacker/s. That's from .38 Special to .44 Special, with a few magnums thrown in. That was a personal choice.

If a person chooses the Judge or Govenor then that is a personal choice as well. Many want the simplicity of the revolver and a gun for protection or for overall around use. This the Judge can do with the various models offered out there.

Many of these people are not into guns like a lot of us. Some are.

Plenty of people who have quality other brand types of firearms have bought the Judge,Governor, or other related firearms and are as normal as anyone else in the firearm culture. The reasons for buying these was well considered,common sense,and thought out carefully. Others wanted a novelty gun or just for fun. That or for any of the above reasons.

Let's also consider this. The .45 Colt/.410 gauge ammo combo also has a large following in other forms of firearms. Bond Arms and other gun makers jumped on the bandwagon a long time ago. For many years at that.

S&W has done the same thing just recently.

The .410 gauge defense rounds for the Judge and Governor have been refined to hit in tighter patterns, wound more, and penetrate deeper and is still an ongoing thing.

One thing that everyone seems to have overlooked is that we all are responsible for every projectile we set loose. That's for ethical and moral reasons. If you hit it you buy it. That includes people and things. OOOOOPS doesn't cut it. So,yes. One has to be careful where every part of the shell's payload goes and does. This isn't T.V. or a video game. Thus I like to loose only one projectile at a time from a revolver or pistol.

Many been there accredited gun instructors value a shotgun for home defense. They're right depending on circumstances and everyones' case is different. In my case shooting off many projectiles in many directions in a tightly packed neighborhood just does not make sense in many ways. So I prefer the handguns or .223 rifle with proper ammo for defense. In other places and for others circumstances will be much different.

Pick the right tool for the job and circumstances.

For CCW carry there are models of the Judge and holsters. On the other hand I find that it is easier to have a K framed revolver or smaller on my person. I am short, have small hands, and short fingers. Medium-small framed pistols, medium, and small revolvers fit my personal needs much better.

I'm sure it's different for most of the rest of you.

 

[weregunner]

Oh,yes. Snake loads were recently tested and documented in a monthly periodical.

.357 magnum-45 Colt/ACP rounds all would have killed or shredded the snakes head. So will .410 gauge #8 rounds.

I have used the CCI .22 WRM snake load on a snake and the snake died from one round. It was saturated.

Plenty of people have used or use good old fashioned lead bullets to do in quarrelsome poisonous snakes. There's more than one way to skin them.

 

[fxstchewy]

I have had one for a while and i like shooting 45lcs at SD range with it, don't shoot it much but for up close SD a 45lc will do the job.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

45 feet =/= 10 feet, also, no one has said anything about standing downrange in front of a Judge. I don't like the idea of a handgun being so limited by it's shot to an effective range of 10 feet and neither do alot of people.

Once again, what advantage does the Judge have over traditional handguns?

 

[Skribs]

The amount of lead you can pump into a target at 10 feet. That is the advantage.

Which is why I say if you think you need something longer range, I would definitely go with a different gun. If I were getting something specifically for bedside table (to fight to my 12-gauge) and/or vehicle console, I would take a Judge.

Unless the other guy has a gun, using a gun beyond the effective range of the Judge is probably asking for a legal nightmare.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Unless the other guy has a gun, using a gun beyond the effective range of the Judge is probably asking for a legal nightmare.

There are many situations that involve ranges over 10 feet and yes they have happened. Do you tote two guns when you go about your day?

 

[Skribs]

No, I do not. I wouldn't want to tote a Judge anyway. Even the 3" barrel 2.5" chamber is a monster.

Like I said, the only situations I would get it for are to be grabbed from a desk/nightstand or a car console. CCW I'd rather have a pocket .380, a 5-shot revolver, or a full-size semi-auto. HD I'd rather have a long gun. But for getting to my long gun, or for car defense, yes, a Judge would be my first choice.

ETA: What would some of those situations be?
Would there be scenarios where your average civilian would be fighting at distances greater than 10-15 feet inside a home (excluding hallway), using the gun from their drawer to get to their shotgun, or in any situation where you would grab a gun from the console of your car?

 

[gilgsn]

But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

I did say that.. 10 feet, of course, that is another story. I am sure the judge would do fine at it's intended range. But so would other guns, which would also do better at longer ranges.. If I had a Judge, I would load it with .45 Colt, not shot. I just saw a TV show "I almost Got Away With It" where a bad guy takes three .22 rounds to the chest, and proceeds to shoot the couple he had kidnapped. Fortunately for them, his gun jammed. The BG drove away to be arrested later, but he was fine.. So, I wouldn't even count on 00 to do the job out of a handgun.

The Judge is a large gun. So, not so good for CCW. In a house, there are far better options. In my opinion, any .357 would do better, in a smaller package. I would also take a short barrel SAA over the Judge any day; you never know when the distance could be a bit longer, and you'll need a tad more accuracy.. If you want to shoot snakes, there are always the CCI shot loads, or even handloads.