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Judgement of Competency With Carry Piece

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Mr. Mosin, Aug 1, 2021.

  1. mcb

    mcb Member

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    My problem with these standardize drills that get practice over and over is they give an artificial level of confidence and tend to not help the shooter be a flexible shooter in face of an unknown shooting problem.

    Long winded example:

    USPSA use standardized stages called classifiers. They are used to set your national ranking, D-class thru Grand Master (Its your average of your six best of your eight most recent, with a few exceptions) in the sport (the Bill Drill is based on an old USPSA classifier). I have never taken to practicing these classifier stages before a match I want my classifier scores and my national ranking to be a true measure of my skill. I had a friend I use to shoot Revolver division with that had the exact opposite view. He would, if an up coming match published what classifier they were going to use, practice that classifier over and over before a match so that when he got to the match he would be primed to do well on the classifier stage(s). It worked he shot the classifiers very well. I was a B-class Revolver shooters. With my friend's pre-practice regiment has allowed him to make it to Master-class in Revolver. The thing was he never ever beat me at a match, club level or even higher level matches. He would almost always beat me on the classifier stage but when it came to a stage he had never seen before, especially big field stages with lots of movement he was never able to break the stages down and solve them as fast and accurately as I could despite the fact that his scores on the classifiers indicating he was a better shooter than me.

    Drills like these are good to practice as the help develop and practice particular skill sets but you need to practice other things and if possible shoot things you have not shot before to keep your mind flexible to solve unusual problems and not get fixed into responding the same way every time that drills tend to encourage.

    This is why I think a better measure of carry competency is shooting matches like USPSA or IDPA. NOT because these sports are realistic scenarios but with most of the stages in these sports they will be unique stages that you have never seen before and probably will never see exactly the same again (unless they are a classifier). Just something to keep in mind, YMMV
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That is a very good point.
     
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  3. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    True. But there are multitudes of Cooldude drills and if you rotate them so you don't get grooved, they can be a reasonable test.

    As to your friend, that is what is known as "grand bagging." Sandbagging to keep from getting bumped in class is more common; as one guy here said "With a major match coming up, I'd rather be a high B than a low A." Neither is treating matches as preparation for Life on da Street.
     
  4. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    Yup, I've seen these "Paper Masters" and never understood the point. I mostly shoot IDPA and my goal has always been to attain Match Bumps...I want to beat people in a match to attain a higher classification
     
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  5. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    You can choose your own measure of competence. I use my old department’s qualification course. But if you only train to that standard you’re just training to shoot the same stage at the match. You will unconsciously develop habits because that might be great for shooting your test but might not have any relevance in the street.

    For years officers on my department trained to fire two rounds, assess and holster. When we started adding drills that required more rounds I saw officers holster after 2 rounds because that’s what they had done for years.

    Use whatever measure you decide on as a starting point but don’t just train for that test.
     
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  6. Father Goose

    Father Goose Member

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    Police are "civilians." Unless in the military, a person is a "civilian."

    Competency? I define that as "good, sane, moral, and understanding of the laws of self-defense." As for "able to use chosen firearm---following the 4 rules of gun safety, being able to safely load, unload, carry, and use whatever that person is carrying." Putting rounds on target out to 10 yards is sufficient for most defensive work.

    Whenver I meet a new gun carrier I suggest the following book Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense. I also point out the importance of a less lethal tool (OC) and some particulars on OC compared to TASER's (which are not good for the self defender).
     
  7. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    There are good square exercises. However, more advanced technique classes where you are observed by a quality instructor to see your flaws, competitions (and if you are interested in SD, with a realistic gun type division in USPSA or IDPA), well planned and critiqued FOF - are the way to go.

    Along with that, legal aspects and situational analysis presentations are good to get. No square range, chasing group size, stationary timer chasing are enough.

    Putting rounds on a target at close range, not impressive - most folks can do that after minimal training but not sufficient.
     
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  8. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    We don’t play semantic games here this is the definition of civilian in every dictionary I know of:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian

    In general use, a civilian is "a person who is not a member of the police, the armed forces, or a fire department."[1][2][3] This use distinguishes from persons whose duties involve risking their lives to protect the public at large from hazardous situations such as terrorism, riots, conflagrations, and wars.[4]

    Most people accept the common definition. It’s not something we need to argue about here. We have more important things to discuss then if a police officer or firefighter is or is not a civilian.
     
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  9. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Welp -

    competency is good, but how something may come at you is a huge issue. First, "spittin distance" might be a situation I could have happen to little OLD me, but the stats coming in are saying maybe 21 feet isn't the norm. Some studies are now showing up to 50 feet distance, but a cop is usually one of the participants. That makes a difference.

    I'll say it anyway, if you are so far behind the curve you don't see something about to go down right in front of you, then, you aren't paranoid enough. I will add, if someone does choose you, then they figure you don't rank very high on their risk list - you look and act and walk too easy. This is where I take a bit of exception to the idea you should be so concealed carry you are supernatural at it. Maybe the better option is to look politely concealed - there are a lot of open carry states and the "flash" law may not be an issue for you at all.

    Not that we show guns to help perps decide Oh yeah that sucka needs puttin down.Wrong time wrong place is a thing, don't,

    There is also the train how you fight - but are you training literally on how to fight ie with hands first? A lot of contact is made to see how resistant you are and that is when some serious "eye gouging" needs to come up quickly - not always the gun. I'm not saying you have to use "continuum" or escalation of force - you go to the level you need immediately. It's not always a gun, tho.

    Imagine what we would be like flying Frontier armed. You can't just shoot every groping drunk in mid air. There has to be more breadth of response than being able to put two rounds into some idiot at arms length because they are stumbling around dumber than Cuomo.

    This is where the discussion turns to more martial arts than gunfighter skills, and I make that point because "gunforum" never explores it. LIke, what gun for Home Defense, yet, dude, how did they even get in. Window film, upgraded door jambs, and what safe room with a cell phone will you stay in? Cause an unloaded 1911 and clearing the house has, can, and was fatal for that guy last month.

    Lets not get into another brag thread on which drill you can clear more accurately and quicker. Especially if someone has wrapped their arms around you from behind, or, just sapped you with a short piece of pipe or hammer. The intent of an attack is to ambush and subdue before you can draw or return fire.

    It's a dark alley out there, and a lot of times we like to play that game on a forum. But it won't be a dark alley, it may be the mall, a pharmacy, gas station, flat tire faked on the road, or a car load of South Americans following you home while you and your wife ride your Harleys and getting the drop on you in the garage. Yep, I'm on vacation months ago and that is a headline while I'm there. 35 miles from the upscale mall to their home, and he got dropped hard on the concreteon his own turf.

    If you are using just one drill, change it up, change how you walk thru it, change where you practice if you can. Can you draw while exiting your car? Seatbelt ON? Sitting at a chair in the restaurant? Exiting the stall in a mens room? Walking across a parking lot? Entering a Boxmart and seeing someone pushing a cart full of guns into the store?

    Do you even NEED to draw - yet? Does your SO understand they don't need to shout BRAD YOU HAVE A GUN SHOOT THAT IDIOT!

    There is a lot more to it than being Quick Draw McGraw and hitting the ace of spades at XX feet under -xx seconds. It implies you can see it coming and can't do anything at all about it but respond with lethal force immediately. That conditioned response is also setting you up for a situation which may only appear that way to you alone, and preloads the response with only a lethal result. Unfortunately for that guy at Boxmart - in Utah - it alerted the perps wife who then just shot the Good Samaritan dead on the spot. We don't have an Angels view with complete omniscient guidance to everything going on around us in a 360 degree sphere.

    Can your training partner poke you with a ten foot pole so you can 180 and then shoot that card on a stick behind you? Most aren't gonna find that range that allows it;

    Word of caution, the DOD loses a big investment every year when a highly trained shooter suffers a lethal wound in training, often in a shoot house, and the typical reason is "jogged leff when we trained right." Because of that, their level of competency is never 100%. Fatal error. Let's not think we should achieve it. We have to train a lot further down the risk scale so that we actually enjoy our life for it's value. We are only human and will make mistakes.
     
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  10. Father Goose

    Father Goose Member

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    So that's "semantics?" I am somewhat confused how a "civilian-based" police force is anything other than "civilian."
     
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  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Police officers are not civilians
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    No.
     
  13. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Did you read the definition? Comments like the police are civilians only serve to start arguments. The official definition of civilian in every dictionary you can find is: A person not in military, police or fire service. That is the definition we use in this sub forum.

    I did 28 years in the US Army, 20 as an Infantryman, after I retired I worked in law enforcement as a city police officer and sheriffs deputy. I guess you can say I’ve fit two of the exclusions.

    What we’ve found here is that members use the whole, “the police are civilians” trope as a way to put down the police or start an argument with another member who uses the generally accepted definition by correcting him. We don’t have room for such nonsense here. THR is different from other gun forums and ST&T is different from the other sub forums.

    Please take the time to read the sticky threads and learn a little about the culture here.
     
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  14. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    Tirod writes:

    A lot of good points, many of which I've preached myself, but I'm guessing the reason they didn't come up yet is because the thread was actually "judgement of competency with carry piece". ;)
     
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  15. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    Competition shooting can be a good measure of capabilities, as far as shooting in general and moving, as well as firearms handling.

    Personally I've got a few drills I practice at home that I would call adequate for someone who EDC's if they passed.

    Ultimately I don't think specific standards should be required to carry, but folks should naturally seek out options that better themselves.
     
    MedWheeler likes this.
  16. Father Goose

    Father Goose Member

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    Same here. Self defense is about as personal a topic as one can find and as long as the person in question is not violating the rights of others I don't think it's anyone's business what that person carries or how.

    Now I have personal rules I've developed over the years that I share with others and justify their adoption of but again, it's a very personal choice.

    (Love your avatar BTW).
     
  17. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    OP, I use the "old" IDPA qualifier as a standard to periodically test my competence with my EDC. A description of this qualifier can be found here:

    http://www.defensivepistol.org/documents/IDPAClassificationMatch.pdf

    This qualifier exercises lots of skills. I find that every time I test myself, it reminds me of things that I need to work on. Seconds and points down don't lie.


    But, use it as a periodic exam. Not as a drill to develop competence in the various skills required to shoot it well.


    If you want to develop, say, fast and accurate target transitions, don't just shoot the qualifier over and over. Consider shooting some or all of these repeatedly: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/3/31/rapid-target-transition/. Change up the distance, target spacing, target size, etc. to keep it fresh. Get some coaching. Keep records of your performance, and practice it dry and live until you see improvement.

    If you want to develop, say, better recoil control, do a bunch of reps of something like a Bill Drill (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/start-shooting-better-episode-3-bill-drill/). Change the distance, angle to target, etc., to keep it fresh. Get some coaching. Keep records of your performance, and practice it dry and live until you see improvement.

    If you want to develop your firearm presentation, trigger control, and vertical transition, set up the failure-to-stop drill (aka the Mozambique) (see: ). Change the distance, angle to target, etc., to keep it fresh. Get some coaching. Keep records of your performance, and practice it dry and live until you see improvement.

    And so on.


    If you shoot the old qualifier periodically (say once in six months or so), with drills that focus on specific skills in between, you'll almost certainly get better in the use of your carry piece.
     
    DoubleMag likes this.
  18. Father Goose

    Father Goose Member

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    Looks like this forum is so "high road" it deletes replies that disagree with the "culture here." That'll do it for me. Adios.
     
  19. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    I guess sometimes it's easier to not quote someone, just put the comment /or kinda quote it in parenthesis ? i.e. ''i.e.'' ??

    OK so much for housekeeping:cool:
     
  20. Craig_VA
    • Contributing Member

    Craig_VA Contributing Member

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    For another training advisory specifically with the Mozambique drill, see
    Do You Even Micro Drill? (Suck Less Saturday)
    on Active Self Protection Extra, 8/7/2021

    Craig
     
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