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Just Curious about Winchester M70 Metric Interest Yes..No..Maybe?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by brnmw, Nov 14, 2012.

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  1. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    I quickly put this together to see if I were to send this off to Winchester and yes I am sure to get back a :neener: "Sir it will never happen... get a life package" in the mail I am just curious just how many people would really be interested in buying a "NIB" production model for the 7.62X54R.
    (Also feel free to criticize any of the info included I am sure it is not all correct...I am not a professional gunsmith or builder/ designer for that matter, just an enthusiast. (Or dreamer which ever term is preferred)

    Winchester Model 70 “Sporter Metric Express”

    Caliber / Gauge 7.62×54mmR (.311” Diameter Bore)
    Action Type Long Action
    Magazine Capacity 5
    Barrel Length 24"
    Nominal Overall Length 44 3/8"
    Nominal Length of Pull 13 3/4"
    Nominal Drop at Comb n/a
    Nominal Drop at Heel n/a
    Nominal Weight 7 lbs. 4 oz.
    Rate of Twist Rifling is 4 groove, right hand, 1 in 9 1/2" (24.1 cm.) twist for all models.
    Wood Finish Satin Finish
    Stock / Grip Grade I Walnut
    U.S. Suggested $879.99

    Cartridge dimensions
    The 7.62×54mmR has 4.16 ml (64 grains H2O) cartridge case capacity. The pronounced tapering exterior shape of the case was designed to promote reliable case feeding and extraction in bolt action rifles and machine guns alike, under challenging conditions. Although the design did not help improve reliability, the cartridge's shape remains the same to the present day.

    You have done it before…you can do it again! :D (Only this time in M70 format)
    Russian-contract Winchester M1895 rifle, chambered for 7.62x54R Russian ammunition and fitted with bayonet lug and clip guides.
    Data for Russian contract rifle:

    Calibers: 7.62x54R
    Action: manually operated, lever action
    Overallength: 1160mm
    Barrellength: 712mm
    Weight: 4.10 kg empty
    Magazine capacity: 5 rounds

    The Winchester 1895 rifle has been developed by famous designer John Moses Browning as a hunting rifle, capable to safely handle long and powerful rifle ammunition, unsuitable for earlier Winchester lever-action rifles. Of about 426 thousands of M1895 rifles, made made by Winchester between 1895 and 1931, about 300 thousands were made on Russian military contract between 1915 and 1917. Of those, about 293 000 rifles reached the Russia before the revolution broke out. Small numbers of Winchester 1895 rifles, chambered for .30-40 Krag ammunition and fitted into military-type stocks, also were acquired between the 1897 - 98 and used by US forces during the Spanish-American war.
    Compared to contemporary military-type bolt action rifles, Winchester M1895 rifles were slightly faster to operate, thanks to its lever-action system; in Russian pattern these rifles also were fitted with clip guides, which allowed for faster reloading. On the other hand, M1895 rifles were more sensitive to fouling and dirt, than the Mosin M1891 or Mauser 1898, and the lever action was less comfortable to operate when firing from prone position, so typical for XX century warfare.
    The Winchester M1895 is a lever action, magazine fed rifle. The horizontally sliding bolt is locked to the receiver by the vertically sliding locking piece, which slides in the receiver grooves up to lock the bolt and down to unlock it. The bolt is locked at its rear, just behind he magazine, but the action is strong enough to safely handle such powerful cartridges as .30-06 or .405 WCF. Movement of the bolt is controlled by the manually operated lever. The interesting feature of the M1895 design is that the trigger is disconnected from internal lockwork during the reloading cycle - an useful safety feature. External hammer also provided additional visual control of the state of the rifle. The box magazine held five or six cartridges in single column, and was loaded through the top opening in the receiver; spent cartridges also were ejected to the top. All M1895 rifles except the Russian-contract ones were loaded with single rounds; Russian-contract rifles were fitted with clip guides, and accepted standard stripper clips from Russian Mosin M1891 rifle. Military-type rifles were fitted with long stocks with straight grips and short forends, as well as bayonet lugs and sling swivels. Commercial rifles were available with various styles and grades of stocks. Most M1895 rifles were witted wit open tangent rear sights and unprotected blade front sights.

    So come on let’s put it back into production! :D

    So really: Yes, No, Mabye and why? (Sorry no poll I want to know why... :))

    (And really no it does not have to be a Winchester M70 either for those non- Winchester M70 people.) :scrutiny:
     
  2. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Totally unnecessary! Just get yourself a Model 70 in 7.62x63mm.

    Don
     
  3. TurtlePhish

    TurtlePhish Member

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    I'd totally be for one. That sounds awesome. Some Mosins shoot great with surplus; imagine how well a new-production M70 will shoot it.

    Plus, it's quite a versatile cartridge for reloading.
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll stick with my 375H&H.
     
  5. Reloadron
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    Reloadron Member

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    I can walk a few blocks and buy a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 30-06. The 7.62 X 54 R is close to being on par with a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet but comes up short of the 30-06 for case capacity and larger bullets. Toss in the fact the 7.62 X 54 R is a rimmed cartridge and as to US manufacturers likely last produced in a 150 grain bullet by Remington who discontinued production around 1950. I doubt Winchester would see a market for a Model 70 chambered in the 7.62 X 54 R cartridge.

    Ron
     
  6. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    Even thought the .30-'06 Spfld. aka 7.62X63mm sounds cool in the metric designation I already own one and shooting 7.62X54Rmm only has the one "Metric" designation therefore making it a specialty "Metric" rifle.:D ( I guess unless we want to start referring to it as the ".30-'91 Russian". )> But that kind of sounds retarted, at least to me it does.

    I guess my thoughts on it came from a conversation I had with my cousin who recently purchased a Winchester M70 in .270 Win. which I also own one of those as well and absolutely love it. One of the issues my cousin had was the price of the .270 Win. ammo and even thought there are many choices and price levels for it I suggested using the Serbian commercial grade .270 Win. for practice/ target shooting for fun and save the more expensive "Quality" grade as he puts it ammo for hunting and practice before the hunt. It made me think just how cool it would be if I had a really cool M70 with a "Quality Target/Hunting" designated scope and could have all the modern day choices of Brass Serbian SP or cheap Steel cased 7.62X54Rmm just to shoot lead down range. :)
     
  7. JWF III

    JWF III Member

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    Just call it a .31 Russian.:D Then you can say it's 1 better than the -06.

    Might have an easier time with 6.5x55mm Swede and 7.5x55mm Swiss. Either loading is very accurate and I may be persuaded to get one in a target barreled version. You just don't have the access to cheap surplus ammo.

    Wyman
     
  8. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    .311 bore. Market size.

    Very tough to convince FN to retool for a new barrel bore in a turn of the (last) century niche military cartridge when they sell oodles of rifles already in a wildly popular, similar performance, turn of the last century military cartridge and another even more modern popular military cartridge with similar performance, both at .308...You would need research showing a reasonable rate of return on investment.

    Perhaps if you joined forces with the 303 supporters?
     
  9. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    I'd love to have a couple European metrics but I would never pay for a Model 70 in a communist cartridge. Just doesn't hold the same appeal and never will. Make it a Model 7 Mannlicher in 6.5x54MS and I'll be all over it.
     
  10. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    There we go I like that, sounds better already! :)
     
  11. ErieLurker

    ErieLurker Member

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    Thought this was the start of a petition to bring back the 6.5x55 Swede and 7x57 Spanish chamberings for the Model 70. Oh well...

    Still, given the popularity nowadays of the old Russian 7.62x54R, may be it's time to start a petition for that?
     
  12. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    Kind of wondered that myself, I do not reload yet... (no room for a decent setup as of yet) but all the US reloading components are .308" bullets I believe and I agree I doubt they will re-tool for such a rifle. I know that American made ammunition for the 7.62X54Rmm round exists but I never see it in the stores therefore I have never been able to test it in a .311" bore rifle for accuracy, etc... (Otherwise they could just re-tool the make believe M70 7.62X54R rifle barrel for the .308" and just use .308 spaced ammo but then that defeats the propose of using even surplus or cheap std. commercial .311" bullets. I am not a ballistics expert, and there may not really be that big of a difference between a .308 vs. a .311" but I bet it changes something in terms of efficiency, accuracy, etc... Like I said I have never been able to ever test the American made ammo through my Mosins, so I do not know.
     
  13. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    I started this post for the 7.62X54Rmm, but it does not really need to stop there. There are plenty of popular Metric chambering that need a popularity revival. I chose the 7.62X54R simply due to the amount of ammo offered in every gun store I see (Just not the American Mftr. brands) that round is everywhere and even if you hate the M91/30 it too is all over the place. I do not see the 7.62X54R going anywhere in the "ammo bone yard" any time soon. People want choices and people are in fact buying more guns today, who says you have to use a .30-06 Spfld. or .308 Winchester because you live in America and those are the only choices you get (Not that there is anything wrong with those I own them myself as well). If I want to harvest a deer or shoot a paper target with a "NIB" M70 chambered in .303 British, or 7X57mm Mauser and it is being offered than as an American, and while I currently have that right than I will exercise that right. I really like that I see more people using something different than sticking with a std. :)

    Thanks for all the posts, I was just very curious about how people would react to a "NIB" modern day rifle with a modern day tech. scope using an old military chambered rifle setup vs. simply purchasing a Soviet Era M91/30 Sniper with a PU WW2 Era scope. (Even though I did not focus on the scope as an issue, but using a modern day scope for me was a plus.)
     
  14. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Who buys a $1000 bolt action deer rifle and then feeds it cheeseball foreign surplus ammo? Which is mostly really seconds, not surplus.
     
  15. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Only one? Sheesh, there's your problem. I've got 7 .30-06's and still feel somewhat deprived.;)

    Don
     
  16. brnmw

    brnmw Member

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    There is never such a thing as having too many guns, and I do always feel "deprived" even if it is shooting:
    :)
     
  17. conhntr

    conhntr Member

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    We dont have to worry about the cheesball foreign ammo for long; the un will save us from it before long
     
  18. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I have had rim lock in Nagants, and those mechanisms have a cartridge interruptor to prevent that.

    No, I would rather have a rimless round in a M70.

    I have several 7.62 X 63 mm and a couple 7.62 X 51 M70's.

    All rimless.


    FNfulllengthDSCN8751.jpg
     
  19. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    +1 to what Craigc said.

    I have to say, I'm not at all interested in a 7.62x54R M70... and I'm REALLY interested in M70's. I guess mostly I just don't see what the point is, the only thing the x54R really does better than the x63 and the x51 is being cheap.... And folks who are willing to pony up for a $1000 rifle should just go into the deal knowing that practice ammo is probably going to cost them at least $15 a box (assuming they don't reload... if they do then the two more pedestrian calibers will probably be cheaper to shoot).

    Now if we were talking about 6.5x55 or another metric caliber that brought something new to the table then I would definitely be more interested.
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Agree with CraigC.
    I don't think you can expect a current manufacturer to tool up for a new rifle so you can shoot cheap surplus.
    The pistol shooters have been whining about this for a long time, "why doesn't somebody build a (1911, Glock, Browning, etc, etc.) to shoot 7.62x25. Which seems mostly to be limited to Bulgarian surplus these days.
     
  21. Unka-Boo

    Unka-Boo Member

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    A commemorative 1895 in x54R would sell better and as long as it's under $2K it'll be far cheaper than an original.

    I think the guys wanting 6.5 and 7x57 are off on a better track.
     
  22. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    My .405 was almost $1000 several years ago and again, I can't see buying such a fine rifle and then feeding it garbage. The .30-40 carbines held more appeal for me but I never got around to getting one.
     
  23. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Not really a niche cartridge when it's been in military, plinking, and hunting use in one variation or another for over 120 years, longer even than the 30/06 by decades.
     
  24. meanmrmustard

    meanmrmustard Member

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    Why? Because they're rimless?

    Guess we oughta quit making 30-30s.
     
  25. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Hasn't been a bolt action Winchester .30-30 in some time.
    I sure wish I had bought that Model 54, though; handy as my 788 is.
     
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