Just ran several tests..

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Been busy for the last few days. I made blackpowder using some willow, natural hardwoods lump, Mesquite chunks all natural, and 'store bought' airfloat..Made about 3 ounces of powder each time. Mesquite surprised me. As near as I can tell the Mesquite left my gun a little cleaner and shot just as hard as the rest. I wanted a re-test on the Mesquite so I made another 3 ounces of powder. Ran the same tests with the same results. Cleaner gun and hard hits; just as hard as the other three, maybe a tad bit harder than the willow...I'm not trying to argue here. I don't argue period and that's all there is to it. I was very careful with my loads and the measurements were exactly the same for all 5 batches of powder that I made..Would like to read any comments anyone may have to make....

 

[tpelle]

I'm interested with experimenting with making my own black powder. I've seen a few U-Tube videos, and one in particular used a sort of motor-driven tumbler filled with non-sparking balls (some looked like glass marbles, and others were some sort of non-sparking steel (stainless?)) to do the final mixing and to "grind" the powder down to the consistency required.

What sort of grinding and mixing process do you use?

The charcoal should be easy enough to produce (a metal container of some sort and a Coleman stove or open fire), but what about the other ingredients - the sulfur and the potassium nitrate? In this "homeland security" age, can these ingredients still be had locally over the counter without a visit from the FBI?

Any issues with getting the consistency right so as to approximate fffg?

 

[ofitg]

GOTC, do you have access to a chronograph to measure the velocities?

Over the past few months that I've experimented with different BP recipes, preparation methods, etc, I always used willow charcoal (just because I read it was the best). I wonder how much it really matters....?

 

[ofitg]

What sort of grinding and mixing process do you use?

tpelle, I use a Lortone 3A rock tumbler - I also use a plastic insert inside the rubber drum, just to make sure that I'm not abrading rubber particles from the drum's interior - I found that 8 ounces of .45 soft lead balls work well as tumbling media.

My practice is to ball-mill about two ounces of charcoal and sulfur together, tumbling time is eight hours.

To cook the final product, I add 3/4 ounce water to 1/2 ounce of the charcoal/sulfur mix. Agitate until it turns into a thick liquid, then put it on a hot plate. When the liquid starts bubbling, stir in 1-1/2 ounces of potassium nitrate.
Pour the hot liquid into a shallow dish (it turns to sludge within seconds as it starts to cool), let it dry. Crumble it up and shoot it.

I don't have any means to compress the powder under tons of pressure, so my powder is similar to the stuff manufactured prior to the mid-1800s. Instead of hard, dense little grains, the consistency is more like cookie crumbs.

I have seen sulfur and potassium nitrate on Ebay, so you shouldn't have much problem obtaining those items. Regarding charcoal, I found that you can manufacture it in small quantities by cooking the wood in a Lee melting pot (max temperature) for one hour..... you can make a lid for the pot out of thin sheet steel.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

No, I don't chronograph. Don't even own one. Now, let me tell you and anyone else who read's this. I have proven absolutely to myself that several other woods are just as good or better than willow. I had already been thinking and am now thinking even more about all the bulls*** I have read and been fed about willow being the end all for making blackpowder. Now, that story has been around for way over 100 years. I believe that how it got started about 'use willow', 'use willow', 'use willow', is handed down from the fur trappers and mountain men. They lived and camped near the rivers and streams because that's where the beaver was. Being near the water like that is also where one would find a lot of willow growing so naturally they would use it. I have already (this morning) found out (from different sources on the internet including 2 universities) that Mesquite burn's a lot hotter than willow. I think that is probably why my gun was cleaner using Mesquite blackpowder. Every shot I fired, using all of the powder in all 5 batches, was made using a scoped Traditions Evolution with a partially fluted barrel and chambered in .45 caliber. I was firing 180 grain Cabela's sabots and using 209's. Range for the shots were carefully measured out in meters. 75 meters and 125 meters..People can believe what they want to but I KNOW that I have proven to myself just exactly what is what here with all of this bulls*** about what to use and what not to use, and do this and don't do that and whatever. It also explain's to me and set's my mind at rest about the Colonel I read about who had something to do with the Texas Rangers who refused the Dupont powder and made his own using Mesquite....PS..I use a small ball bill with .56 caliber lead media. I mix a few .451's in there to. Having 2 different sized media will help it grind faster for some reason....

 

[arcticap]

There's so many kinds of willow that maybe some folks don't know the difference and have been using pussy willow instead.

They're actually a related willow and might be worth trying:

http://gardening.yardener.com/Yarde...Files/FilesAboutShrubs/ShrubFiles/PussyWillow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_willow

Willows have wide variations in these tests. These include weeping willow, black willow, goat willow, diamond willow & narrowleaf willow. Plus there's probably some variation whenever charcoal is supplied from independent sources and then more afterward once different batches of ingredients are mixed to make the BP.

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

 

[makos_goods]

No, I don't chronograph. Don't even own one. Now, let me tell you and anyone else who read's this. I have proven absolutely to myself that several other woods are just as good or better than willow. I had already been thinking and am now thinking even more about all the bulls*** I have read and been fed about willow being the end all for making blackpowder. Now, that story has been around for way over 100 years. I believe that how it got started about 'use willow', 'use willow', 'use willow', is handed down from the fur trappers and mountain men. They lived and camped near the rivers and streams because that's where the beaver was. Being near the water like that is also where one would find a lot of willow growing so naturally they would use it. I have already (this morning) found out (from different sources on the internet including 2 universities) that Mesquite burn's a lot hotter than willow. I think that is probably why my gun was cleaner using Mesquite blackpowder. Every shot I fired, using all of the powder in all 5 batches, was made using a scoped Traditions Evolution with a partially fluted barrel and chambered in .45 caliber. I was firing 180 grain Cabela's sabots and using 209's. Range for the shots were carefully measured out in meters. 75 meters and 125 meters..People can believe what they want to but I KNOW that I have proven to myself just exactly what is what here with all of this bulls*** about what to use and what not to use, and do this and don't do that and whatever. It also explain's to me and set's my mind at rest about the Colonel I read about who had something to do with the Texas Rangers who refused the Dupont powder and made his own using Mesquite....PS..I use a small ball bill with .56 caliber lead media. I mix a few .451's in there to. Having 2 different sized media will help it grind faster for some reason....

GOTC

Those sound like strong words from a man who doesn't have any means of verifying the velocity of his loads other than "feel." Perhaps you have some other scientifically verifiable evidence to proffer?

Willow is a preferred wood because of the density. It is a low density wood and produces low density charcoal. Using engineering tables that have been around over a hundred years you can look up the potential energy yield for different charcoals by weight and by mass density. Willow is on the higher end of the scale by weight. Mesquite is actually much lower on the energy scale by weight.

The only way you can make equal energy Black Powder mixtures with Willow and Mesquite is not to mix by weight. You have to resort to the densities, not the weight by volume. I wrote about this once before.

Be careful with relating heat from a charcoal fire to the potentially yielded energy content of charcoal. Mesquite as a fuel wood or even a charcoal burns hotter because of the lignin content. Lignin is actually a polymer and is considered an impurity in gun powder. Lignin takes more oxidizer to combust than the cellulose. You would have to play around with your ratios of KNO3 to the mesquite to get the balance you need. The rate at which it liberates the energy is actually longer than less dense woods. An equivalent weight of willow will be consumed much sooner than an equivalent weight of mesquite. Ask anyone who uses it for BBQ, mesquite burns long. All dense woods burn long.

Mesquite is a tight pored very dense wood that also has a very high mineral content. If it was a better wood for gun powder manufacture quite a few of my friends would be in tall cotton right now.

Believe it or not people have been making gun powder for a few years before your recent discovery. Perhaps you should consider their years of research and experience.

Regards,
Mako

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well Mako Goods, use your willow. Sir, I don't care what you or anybody else uses. I was just telling people what I found out for myself. Not trying to and don't need to prove anything to anyone. I'vd already proven it to myself and I'm the only one who matters to me. I made the powder, I made the shots, and I burned my gasoline driving my Ford Pickup truck back and forth to look at the targets. I don't need to know and don't care to know what people done way back then. I've done peeped everybody's hole card. I done found out what work's real good for me. Everybody else can do as they please. None of my business..Articap, is pussy willow good? I'vd never had any but even the antelope out here are starting to look good to me!....

 

[makos_goods]

GOTC,
If you have nothing to prove to anyone why did you even post?

It seems that you are willing to tell us "how the cows ate the cabbage," but you are unwilling to listen to anything that doesn't fit your narrow view. I asked "what cows?" and now you are loudly protesting. I ask "what cabbage?" and you howl all the louder.

When it get's into the realm of feeling, or when people start using comparative adverbs like harder instead of offering evidence I relegate those findings to the same corner as I do with those who would divine their fate with astrology.

I leave you to your unicorns, excuse me, I meant your antelopes.

Regards,
Mako

 

[Foto Joe]

I should probably know better than to stick my nose into this but oh well....

Although I don't make my own, I'm intrigued by the fact that I could if I wanted to. I too have heard since the beginning that willow is the best. But I commend somebody like Stan for trying something different. Although in my part of Wyoming Mesquite trees hard to find, unless the grocery store has pre-made mesquite charcoal.

It's long been human nature for us to experiment with different methods of doing things. There may be a method which yields better results for most, but given humidity, altitude and environmental conditions, maybe that formula isn't the optimum for a given location.

It sounds like GOTC has come upon a formula which works to his satisfaction. I don't see a thing wrong with using mesquite instead of willow. What if you actually needed to make powder and you couldn't find a willow stand to save your life? Wouldn't it be nice to know that there are other woods out there that might be able to be used. Who knows, we might all be exiled to West Texas some day and have to hunt armadillos to survive!!

I see THR as a media which allows us to share ideas. If the idea is dangerous or foolish, then someone will probably step on your neck. If you simply just don't agree with the idea then politely state your case or leave it alone althogether.

Stan,
I'd like to know what kind of weight difference you get for a specific volume of mesquite Black Powder compared to say Goex or another commercial powder. I'm assuming that the mesquite would be quite a bit heavier, or would I be mistaken?

And lastly...Using mesquite Black Powder just for target shooting must make you hungry for BBQ

 

[robhof]

Anybody tried cottonwood, or am I opening up another can of worms?

 

[tpelle]

Just to jump in here before my main question..........
......... I read somewhere that pretty much any "junk" soft wood would work for making the charcoal.

Now, back to my main question: These tumblers that folks use. I'm surprised to see that they have rubber or rubber-lined drums. I always associated rubber with static electricity - but I have to admit that I'm kind of hazy on the matter. Are rubber drums OK for milling the final mixture?

I picture myself doing this with a LONG extension cord.

 

[tpelle]

Sorry - Double Tap!

 

[ofitg]

GOTC, I'm not trying to challenge your findings - I think it's fascinating to experiment with different recipes, and now you got my curiosity going - I'm gonna have to start collecting mesquite branches. My list of "things to do" gets longer every day

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

tpelle, I can't say whether the rubber drums (with or without plastic liners) will cause any static build-up, but I can assure you that ball-milling a mixture of sulfur and charcoal is very low risk. There's no oxidizer present.

In the few months that I've been playing with this project, I've never had any mishap. Just to be on the safe side, I run my ball mill out in the back yard.

Have fun with it!

 

[Bluehawk]

GOTC
I would be curious to know your technique on how you produced the powder...care to share? Formula...milling times...etc.
BTW...Dixe sells (or did at one time) a BP testing device that looks like a small BP percussion pistol. It loads a few tiny grains in the barrel...a shield swings over it and when it's fired a spring loaded arm shows the comparative value. You measure that against a known value such as Goex that you test...it's very simple and reliable.
Those looking for the chemiclas...go to: www.skylighter.com

Personally, I use a Thumblers Tumbler Model B tumbler, 150 .58 caliber lead balls, using 75-15-10 formula, milling for 24 hours a 500 gram batch at a time.
When done, I wet it all down into several "snowballs" then screen them through window screen...let it air dry completely in the shade.
The grains are rather soft but work fine for the intended purpose of rifle or pistol powder. You do have to use a little bit more of it for the desired velocity but at pennies per pound it's worth it.

 

[Jaymo]

The Harbor Freight rock tumbler has a black rubber drum. Wonder if the black pigment prevents static buildup, like a black rubber static discharge strap?

 

[arcticap]

Does anyone know what kind of charcoal that Goex uses?
Is it maple?

 

[Oyeboten]

If I am understanding this right, traditionally, Black Powder making relied on lighter Specific Gravity Woods which would have a higher Cellulose to Lignum ratio than do the Heavier Wood Species.

Willow is a relatively light Wood...and relatively free of Mineral saturations or inclusions.

No doubt, any sort of Wood will produce Charcoal that will work for making BP.

Though, a home made Black Powder which performs well in a long Rifle, might not work as well in a Pistol for it being a slower burning product for having been made using Charcaol from a heavier Specific Gravity Wood species.


Which leads me to wonder...how Balsa Wood would do?

Or, why even use Wood at all?

May one not make a super fine Charcoal out of Cotton, for example? Which would begin as nearly pure Cellulose, and, no Lignum present?

On and on...



Anyway, Hats Off to GotC for his interest and effort to experiment, and, thus to inspire and encourage us all by example.


One way to tell if one's Shots are more Powerful is by noting their placement on a Target over a long distance, which is to say, to note the difference in drop from one batch of Powder to another, with the same weight Loading and same point of Aim, where, of course, the longer the distance, the more the drop will show.

Less drop = more power ( or higher FPS, same thing of course).


My guess, is that sans Chronograph, this is what GotC was doing.


It is what I would do, if I did not have a Chronograph...or, what I would do, even if I did have a Chronograph for that matter.

 

[makos_goods]

Oyeboten,
Extremely low density woods like balsa or other sources of fuel such as plant sugars have burning rates that are too high to be useful as sporting powder. There are many types of powder but just as you wouldn't use Bullseye or W213 in a rifle cartridge. You match the fuel source to the needed burning rate. That's why mesquite isn't a good choice.

As I said the complex polymer chain lignin is undesirable. On the other hand a certain amount of creosote is extremely desirable. Creosote content in the right proportion and with the correct density of charcoal makes for a "moister" burning gun powder. Many of you have probably heard that Swiss and even Schuetzen is "moist burning" and leave softer fouling residue. This is because of the Scottish Alder they use.

To answer the question about the charcoal used by Goex I can only offer the following:

When Gearhart-Owen (later to become GOEX) purchased the Belin powder plant in Moosic, PA from DuPont in 1972 the longtime supplier for the charcoal was the Huskey Oil Company at a wood chemical plant located in Bradford County, PA. Huskey used both maple and beech wood to produce wood chemicals with the charcoal was simply a byproduct of the process. Then in 1973 Huskey unexpectedly closed this plant. Rumor was their equipment was worn out and the new owners were an unknown quantity and they weren't willing to invest in upgrading their equipment. Over the years DuPont had changed from being a source for their byproducts to the primary customer for their plant's production.

A few months later (1973) Goex began using subcontracted maple charcoal produced by the Roseville Charcoal Company in Zanesville, OH. The actual wood charring operation was located in West Virginia.

This continued until April 16,1997 when there was an explosion at the Moosic plant. This incident shut the plant down and GOEX, Inc.then made the decision to keep the Belin Plant closed and move the black powder manufacturing operation to Minden, LA.

Coinciding with the plant accident in Moosic causing a stop in operations, the Roseville Charcoal company lacking another customer ceased their operations in West Virginia. After the Goex move to Minden and the resumption of production in 1998 Roseville subcontracted production of charcoal from smaller plants producing charcoal for spirit distillers and filtering charcoal.

There was a marked decrease in the energy of Goex at this time, but to be fair it probably was due to a multitude of reasons, the Potassium Nitrate source, the new locations water quality, or lack thereof as well as the mongrel charcoal they were receiving all contributed.

By early 2001 Goex found a new supplier for their charcoal that at least equaled the quality of their old Huskey charcoal. Since the change to the new supplier and especially since Hodgdon acquired Goex in 2009 Goex has played it’s supplier list extremely close to the vest. I have gotten a few tidbits from Jerry Dean and they have assured them it is equivalent charcoal to the Huskey without coming out and stating it is maple. The oak they were getting just wasn’t doing the trick.

Goex had been chasing Swiss and even Schuetzen a bit with their Express and even Cartridge grades. They were doing this with processing and even the Potassium Nitrate instead of the charcoal. A pyrochemical chemist consultant they had kept pushing them to change charcoal and the tried some Alder out of Scotland, but they failed to secure a charcoal producer and paid a premium to have the wood shipped. Hodgdon just isn’t willing to invest in a better wood at this time. The consultant pointed out they had a ready source of Black Willow in the U.S. and they just needed to develop a Southern charcoal producer and they could repeat the higher energy charcoal that the Confederacy enjoyed.

This reference to the powder production and quality was cited in the historical documents residing at the Augusta museum and monument in Georgia.

“General Rains oversaw the production of 2,750,000 pounds of gunpowder at their Augusta facility for three years. They furnished the majority of this fire power for Confederate soldiers east of the Mississippi River. The Augusta plant never worked to capacity, and even when a rush order with 22,000 pounds of powder came from Charleston, it took them only two days to fill it. The powder captured at the end of the war was placed at Fortress Monroe and it was pronounced superior to all of their federal supplies.”

It is also written about in Gunpowder of the Rebel Flag: (Secrets of the Confederate States of America) by George W. Rains Which is primarily the speech given by Rains in 1882 at a Confederate Survivors Association meeting.

Unlike the Union which had been primarily using hardwoods for their powder, the plant in Augusta was using softwoods and specifically Willow.

That's about it for Goex. And in tests Goex is outperformed by other brands of gun powder regardless of the measuring methodology. It is interesting to review these tests because the differences in mass density become apparent when they are measured out in the traditional grains volume (or CCs) instead of grains weight. Goex still makes the majority of it's money selling to the military (actually the majority is to munitions contractors). Maybe someday Hodgdon will get serious and challenge Swiss, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[ofitg]

The following is an excerpt from the book Liber Ignium ad Comburendos Hostes, written by Marcus Graecus..... there is some mystery about the age of this text, but most agree that it was written prior to 1300 AD....

 

[Oyeboten]

Thank you Macos Goods for the additional information.

I think I had known that the differing Charcoals were important, but, had forgotten about the Creosote.

I appreciate your reminder about how it is possible to make Black Powder which would have too fast a burn rate for use in Small Arms.

Indeed, there were many differing kinds of Black Powder for different uses back when, or even today, and some are too fast for small Arms.

Interesting that the Powder Manufacture of the North was not so well informed or well supplied, as that of the Southern States at the time of their contentions.

Willow I think may also be the Wood for the slender Charcoal 'sticks' used traditionally by Artists for sketching, but, I am not sure.

I used to make Charcoal Sketching sticks for a girlfriend who was an Artist, and I used whatever suitable sized twigs I could find, and, overall, they worked very well, with some being harder or softer than others.

I just baked them in a sealed ( old style Metal Lid ) Coffee Can filled with Sand, in my Wood Stove.


What qualities would one look for then, in candidate Woods, for making the Charcoal, for making a good Pistol Powder, if one does not live where suitable Willow species are found?


I am in Las Vegas, where, possibly, some sorts of Willow exist far up in to the lower Mountain areas, but, I doubt any are to be found in Town or close by.

Creoste Bush, so called, grow all over the place here...and, years ago many residents grew Grapes, and some few still do, so, either of those would be obtainable I suppose.


But, the profile in overview for candidate Woods, would be the factors of Cellulose to Lignum ratio, and, Creosote content? With low mineral inclusions or saturation? As a place to start?


Mesquite Wood to my recollection, is usually a fairly dfense and heavy Wood, which probably has some significant Creasote content, but, I have not burned any in a long time to have noticed any details on it.

Those Trees who are positioned to enjoy more Water, and a milder Winter, likely end up producing a lighter Wood, than those situated in more arid and colder conditions...so there would be maybe some considerable variations then in the quality of Charcoal one would get, according to the elevation or other situation of the individual Tree, or, with how these Trees have adapted to their range of regions and conditions.

Just guessing on that...

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

That's exactly how I was doing it. That's why the targets were set at exactly 75 meters and at 125 meters. Don't need a chronograph to tell if the round is getting there and don't need a chronograph to look at the hole knocked through the plank to tell if I have enough power or not. I'm a field man, not a book man. I didn't say willow did not make good powder. I said that the Mesquite Chunks (all natural wood), (which I bought at Wal-Marts), made me some good powder with a good clean burn and plenty of power. Stand by it to. The shots were made from an inline. Have no idea how good a burn I would get in a '47 or '58 or carbine....Not EXACTLY 75-15-10 for my Mesquite or natural hardwoods sir but you're not far off the mark. This is late April. Been a hard wet month even for Wyoming. When it warm's up a little more I may make about 4 more ounces using Mesquite and then try a few balls through the '47 and the '58. If it burn's pretty good and pack's some punch then I'll know it'll work in the carbine. Hell, it shoot's good but I don't expect any blackpowder made either by a company or individual to pack the punch of Triple Seven 3fff unless maybe one soaks it with a tiny tiny hairline drop of nitro or some sugar maybe. (sugar will greatly enhance any explosion)....Yeah, I know a little about that sort of stuff. The last time I made nitro I was 15 years old. Cooked it in a small pot on top of Momma's cookstove. If she'd known about it she would have beaten me half to death I'm sure. Made about half an ounce. (has the consistency of high octane gasoline when it's first boiled. then it has to be distilled.) Took it down into the field back out behind the barn and set it on the ground against a big tree stump. Set it off with a single shot .22 rifle. Couldn't find a piece of that stump as big as the palm of one of my little 15 year old hands...That 'natural hardwoods' make's some good powder to...Mako Goods, sir; why do you make such a deliberate attempt to be so insulting? You're just wasting your time. I know what I know. Tested and found out for myself. I use TS3fff and have a damn good supply but if someday in this uncertain world we live in I may need to make a little powder I will know how. Why do you seem to derive such pleasure in quoting stuff out of some book and trying to tell me how wrong I am? I would not do you like that. I'd just simply accept your posts and go on about my business. My powder shot damn good. Knocked some pretty damned impressive holes through that 1 inch thick plank and stayed well within the section of the plank I had marked off with a paintbrush and black paint. The only negative of the whole experience is that I made several shots (high powered) and my right shoulder and right arm are still just a little sore....

 

[alsaqr]

GOTC, thanks for your informative posts.

 

[makos_goods]

...Mako Goods, sir; why do you make such a deliberate attempt to be so insulting? You're just wasting your time. I know what I know. Tested and found out for myself.

...Why do you seem to derive such pleasure in quoting stuff out of some book and trying to tell me how wrong I am?

...I would not do you like that. I'd just simply accept your posts and go on about my business.

GOATC,
I don't make an attempt to be insulting, I just state the facts. If that is insulting I'm sorry.

As for "QUOTING" from a book...I'm quoting from my education, I consult my references and notes when necessary. You do this for a hobby, I did it for a job. Not just small arms ammunition, but big ordnance as well. I used to buy tons of BP and other explosives a year. 95% of the BP produced in th U.S. is used in making initiators and bursting charges for ordnance and fusing.

In addition, perhaps you can tell us which books I am "quoting from." They aren't things you will find lying about.

The reason I sometimes react to your posts is that I believe in good data, research and facts. There is a dearth of decent information out there and every time someone posts it becomes part of the communal "knowledge" that floats around on the internet. I shudder when I see certain things posted. This isn't voodoo, witchcraft or some mystical art, it is simply applied chemistry and chemical engineering. There is a reason for everything even if someone is unaware of it or unwilling to accept it.

You have a short memory sir, I have at times been the first person to respond to your request for help. I remember a couple of threads... Furthermore when you started this thread what was your original statement? I believe it was

..Would like to read any comments anyone may have to make....

These are my comments...

Now about you making nitroglycerine.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Regards,
Mako

P.S.
I am a student of history as well (with the bona fides to prove it). Tell me more about those Texas Rangers that eschewed the factory powder in favor of mesquite based powder. That is a a story I haven't ever heard before and I'm very interested in pursuing that line. I have access to the necessary records and writings and this could be something to add the the public history of the Texas Rangers.

 

[Busyhands94]

thanks for posting this! you can actually get potassium nitrate as Green Light brand stump remover. it works well once you purify it. you need to dissolve it in hot water, strain it through a coffee filter, and then let the liquid dry and collect your potassium nitrate. it works for me, i think they add something to it that enhances the stump removal properties but hinders burn time. however once you dissolve/strain it it works much better. also if you would like to test the powder they have this at Dixie: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_125&products_id=3519