justifiable poaching?

[oklahoma caveman]

who is advocating anything illegal? its simply a discussion about whether you would have your kids starve or shoot a deer/hog/elk/etc.

and im sure that those of you that are so adamant against this issure have been through the very worst situations that youl ever find on this planet. no doubt you could be air dropped off in the middle of a deserted island and still find some kind of a paying job and supermarket to support your family. the rest of the population should be more like you

bottom line is that you never know what you are capable of until placed in that situation but you will do what you must to survive.

 

[MCgunner]

Hey, I have no problem with the taking of hogs out of season, since there is no season here. That's one reason why I don't see that poaching deer is necessary. Besides, a hog trap is more effective and you can be out looking for work while the trap does its thing. Lots of farmers EVEN IN TEXAS would let you set a hog trap even if you weren't needing the meat to survive. There are lots of legal ways, and more effective, than trying to live off deer. I ain't seen a deer all damned season, ROFL! I'd be starving to death by now if I actually was trying to live off venison. My freezer is full of pork, thanks to the trap.

Rabbits are legal all year, so are hogs, and in much of Texas so are squirrel. The bay is FULL of edible protein! You don't even need a boat, just a pole and a cast net for bait. Why would you need to poach a deer???? If you ain't in such a good area, hell, move! There are jobs down here, too!

 

[borrowedtime69]

yup

the reasons i think that poaching would be justified are as follows:

1. You have to feed your family and you are truely in a dire situation.

2. you are homeless and, insiead of hanging around the city begging for stuff, you deside to go to the wilderness with whatever you have and live off the land. at least you would not be a drain on society and you wouldnt be tempted with booze or drugs. you could actually do things to earn money to get necessities, ie, pelts, pan for gold, carving knick-knacks, etc. that alone would keep you in ammo and flour, the rest of the stuff you need can be gotten from the wild.

- Eric

 

[marksman13]

Oklahoma Caveman, it sounds like you have already made up your mind about which side of the fence you are on. Sounds like you want everyone to either agree with you or shut the hell up. That's the feeling I get anyway.

 

[plumberroy]

Thank for the offer but I'm doing all right now. the last time I killed anything because we needed it was 15 years ago I don't do with out much these days and I don't rent. As far as walking and camping that's fine for a man by himself when you have a wife and grade schooler that not a real option

ANY local mission, church, shelter provides free meals, no questions asked.

Most small towns don't have missions or shelters I figured why take from people that were not able to get out and get something them self ,in the area I was in the local churches were doing good to help the elderly and disabled. when there aren't many job's they don't get much in the offering plate to work with.

Besides, a hog trap is more effective and you can be out looking for work while the trap does its thing.

Hog trap doesn't do you a bit of good were you don't have hogs I like pork better than venison. squirrels and rabbits may be in season all year long in texas there are a lot of places they are not.I've ate groundhog and pidgeon too As far as life being hard I raised 2 kids worked construction all day and went to school at night for 4 years graduated with 4.0 gpa went from having to hunt for food to making more than most I have plumbing licence in 3 states plus a U.A.W. juorneymans card My point is some times you can have some rough spots along the path of life and you got to do things to get by I have no pity for any one that doesn't try to help them selves I also can over look some one bending the rules to feed his family I would rather see some one shoot a deer than growing or making drugs or robbing some one. the only complait I get from my hunting buddies now is that I don't shoot at 3/4 of the rabbits the dogs bring around to busy enjoying my dogs running the rabbits

 

[cracked butt]

I'm wondering about how many of the 'holier than thou' bunch on this thread would stop to pick up fresh roadkill to eat or would just keep driving and let it go to waste?

Sure its out of season and the meat is taken in a more legal circumstance, but the end result is the same. I can attest that roadkill deer taste just the same as those taken during the hunting season

 

[MCgunner]

Game wardens around here donate road kill, illegally killed and confiscated animals, what they don't keep, I reckon, LOL. Texas law, you're not supposed to pick the deer up, call and report it hit. I've not ever had to do that. Wife hit a deer once, nice hood damage. BTW, it is "holier than thou" to obey the law? I mean, yeah, I've gotten speeding tickets. Hell, who don't? But why am I so holy just for following game laws? Is it ethical to disobey them? Everyone on this board likes to complain that stand and feeder hunting is "unethical", but it's legal and the way we hunt here. So, I'm unethical, but "holier than thou"?.....

 

[oklahoma caveman]

there are some things that the importance of rises above a state law imho. feeding my children would be one of them.

 

[Art Eatman]

Any more sarcasm aimed at somebody else's comment, and I'll close this thread. Some of y'all are already over the line of responsible behavior.

Art

 

[one-shot-one]

aside from a survival situation (stranded) in the wilderness - NO
if you have time and money to hunt then you have time and money to find a job.

 

[plumberroy]

what I mean by holier than thou statement in referance to some one that has never been in that situation being, judgemental of those who have. as far as hunting over bait ,unless you are glassing and stocking bedded animals your are hunting with bait be it corn you put out or a white oak dropping acorns only differance is weather it grew there or you put it there animals are still there to eat. or you set up on a trail coming or going to food it is still a form of baiting the few people I know that have feeders feed all year round and increase feeding when the weather gets bad for extended periods.
after a bad winter a couple years ago his woods was the only woods I did not find dead deer in after the weather broke.
A round here If you hit a deer the sherriff dep.with give you a tag for a deer you hit. If you don't want it, they have a list you can put your name on they call the first person on the list if that person can't come now they go to the next till some one comes then they start at the next person on the list next time you just call the sherriff's dep. and tell them put me on the list
when I was first married coon hides brought $20-$30 I picked up many off the road to help pay the bills
Roy

 

[MCgunner]

I remember late 70s, early 80s when coon pelts were gong for that. I ran a trap line one winter and made a few bucks. Hell, I had a good job, but money is money! Coon is edible and legal year round here, BTW, but I don't care much for it. Armadillo ain't too bad, though. I've eaten Armadillo AND rattle snake is fantastic fried. A big one has lots of meat on it, a couple of meals.

I've been there, trust me, was early in my life going to school. My parents were working poor and I supplemented the freezer with game when I was a kid, just LOVED hunting. Spent most of my free time in the woods chasing squirrel and rabbits unless I was fishing with grandpa. He'd call nearly every week in the summer and wanna know if I wanted to go.

After college and after getting a job, I never had to worry too much about it. I got laid off in 82, did some crabbing for chump change, then got a contract job a month later, worked for a month on that contract, laid off, got the job I recently lost after 23 years. So, most of my life I've been secure and now I have investments that pay the bills. But, I still remember the struggles. I guess we have more legal to hunt here in Texas than some places. Rabbits are not controlled, nor are hogs. Javelina are 2 per year, but no closed seasons or at least didn't used to be. I don't hunt 'em, may be seasons on 'em now. They are a controlled game species. Fishing's good. Rattlers, armadillo, squirrel outside of east Texas piney woods counties are year round. Often, pecan farms will let you have all the squirrel you want, usually request you use a shotgun. Easy hunting, just lean against a tree and read a book and wait for them to come out. They WILL be there where there are pecans.

I sustained myself for a couple of years in school by hunting, did it all legal. Fortunately, it didn't cost as much for a license back then. My GOD, don't know if I could have afforded a license at today's prices.

I suppose it's easier here, though, to live off the land, especially with the boom in hog populations, than other states, even than Alaska, it appears. Heck, we even have an alligator season now that we didn't have when I was a kid. You wanna FILL a freezer, take a 12 foot gator. You can sell the hide, too.

I haven't even mentioned stuff like crabbing, a mudbug hole I know about (crawdads, Louisiana lobsters), bowfishing for gar, just lots of opportunities here I guess others don't have. Living on the coast is even more bountiful. And, all this without much public land. Lots of public bird hunting, but not much for deer/hog.

 

[Hobie]

Poaching is illegal hunting. It is "bad" because it is illegal. Hunting might not be bad, for game, for the hunter, for the community, but it might still be illegal and thus would be poaching. If one had a need, caused no harm, would poaching then be bad.

Remember, some immoral acts are legal and some legal acts are immoral...

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Poaching is a manufactured crime, resulting from the right to hunt being turned into a privilege that is licensed. Similar to how in many states carrying a firearm has been turned from a right into a privilege requiring a license/permit, and it's a "crime" if you do so and do not have that license. Actually, in my state, technically you can legally hunt on property you own without a license, but pretty much all of the other regulations (seasons/etc.) still apply. I sort of like that but think no license at all should be needed. I don't have much problem with regulations/limits made to prevent over hunting but the license aspect bothers me. I wouldn't care if someone illegally takes an animal for reasons of survival/food. Not sure I'd have the same tolerance for those who poach for a trophy though since that comes at the expense of meat for those who need it...in some states though (not sure how many exactly), it's not illegal to take an animal if you need it for reasons of survival.

Those who would say "get a job" have obviously never experienced not being able to get a job despite trying. For example, the local economy around me is crap (primarily service jobs now because manufacturing has been almost eliminated through taxes, regulation and mostly foreign competition) and getting just a retail job can be hard, and you can't support a family with that...and I'd rather see a person hunting or fishing for food to get by than going on welfare.

 

[Art Eatman]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the rules were generally created by hunters, and codified into law and regulation. WE created the concept of seasons and bag limits. Of legal hunting hours. We did it to bring back game species from the too-low numbers of the early 20th century.

For us, here at THR, there should be a separation of survival hunting (regardless of why it's perceived as a need), and the game hog/commercial thief/immoral-trophy sort of real poaching in the more common meaning.

Art

 

[MCgunner]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the rules were generally created by hunters, and codified into law and regulation. WE created the concept of seasons and bag limits. Of legal hunting hours. We did it to bring back game species from the too-low numbers of the early 20th century.

Absolutely. If you hadn't have said it, it was going to be my next post. Game laws are NECESSARY for the maintenance of game populations at healthy levels. It's been a century and people today don't learn their history. Licensing is taxation, taxation only of the user. If you don't like the tax, don't hunt or fish, but we have to fun wildlife management and research. We also have pitman-robertson taxes on the federal level, federal duck stamps, and such. Every fish hook you buy, every round of ammuntion, every rod or real or spool of monofilament is subject to pitman robertson taxes.

Through some of this taxation, we have federal and state hunting lands. It is NOT necessarily a BAD thing and we, as hunters and outdoorsmen, demanded it to restore game populations.

 

[paintballdude902]

when mydad was growing up my his friends parents hired a mexican to work at their vinyard

he had a bunch of kids and had trouble feeding them so he shot deer in the vinyard with a .22 to feed his kids
when the merisous had no problem with it because he was doing some pest control

my dad and his friend hunted there with a permit saying they were destroying crops but the mexican never ask permision or anything so it was technically poaching

but now they have ways for people to get free lisenses if they are on welfare or food stamps so he would have been able to do that now but not in the 50's

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Licensing is taxation, taxation only of the user. If you don't like the tax, don't hunt or fish, but we have to fun wildlife management and research. We also have pitman-robertson taxes on the federal level, federal duck stamps, and such. Every fish hook you buy, every round of ammuntion, every rod or real or spool of monofilament is subject to pitman robertson taxes.

Through some of this taxation, we have federal and state hunting lands. It is NOT necessarily a BAD thing and we, as hunters and outdoorsmen, demanded it to restore game populations.

No, licensing is the taking of a right and replacing it with a privilege. The same way voting was turned into a privilege through the poll taxes which some couldn't afford, the same way carrying firearms has been turned into a privilege in most states. Hunting and fishing (particularly on one's own land) is (or rather was) a right, not a privilege. To say to those who can't (or won't) pay to be given a privilege which is supposed to be a right, is to infringe on their rights the same as the other examples I listed did/are. It was and is not necessary to turn it into a privilege in order to protect the game populations. There could be limits or seasons but no licensing requirements. State or local police are already paid and they could take the job of enforcing the limits/etc.

There were state and federal public lands long before there were these taxes and licensing requirements, they are not necessary for providing those lands. And those taxes, especially on ammo and other gun items, tax non-hunters as well. And it's not the government's job, anyways, to conduct wildlife research and such. Private organizations could do so if it is desired.

And again, to those who say "get a job" to those who illegally hunt for food to get by in bad times, again I will point out that sometimes jobs, or jobs that pay enough, simply are not available. In that case, what would you rather have, a deer or some small game illegally killed, or them living off welfare, funded by your taxes (which may have to go up if the system gets overloaded)?

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."

 

[Art Eatman]

The Dingell/Johnson and Pitman/Robinson taxes were lobbied for by hunters/fishermen and their groups. It's the primary source of money, besides hunting licenses, for game wardens and wildlife biologists and their surveys.

The work-together efforts have paid off, with such as Ducks Unlimited working with advice from game departments about what areas need protection via land purchase.

Now, in Texas, we have quite a few private groups which associate with the wildlife agency and with universities for habitat studies and all that research.

Anybody from Texas oughta check out the Texas Wildlife Association. While they're oriented toward the larger game ranches, their lobbying efforts and educational efforts work for us little guys as well. Strong legislative voice for landowners' rights. Strong youth hunter program.

And strong on anti-poaching ethics.

 

[MCgunner]

And again, to those who say "get a job" to those who illegally hunt for food to get by in bad times, again I will point out that sometimes jobs, or jobs that pay enough, simply are not available.

There are retraining programs, trade schools, all sorts of ways to change your line of work if demand flops FOR your line of work. Heck, I was laid off in 82, what were the unemployment rates, near or over 10 percent at the time I think. I did have to relocate down the coast, sell one house, buy another, but I got it done. Now, unemployment is near 4 percent, all time lows.

You may not be able to do what you know how to do. You may have to retrain. You may just have to relocate. You can't live out life by hunting off the land and making no money, legally or not! Get a trade that's in demand, go to school if necessary. I have a net friend (met in person) just graduated nursing school in Las Vegas. He formerly was a soldier, then went to work for HP in California, got laid off when the tech bubble popped. He went to school, GI bill probably helped. Now, he's an RN and they make GOOD money and there is demand. Or, just go where the work is.

In my lifetime (I'm getting old, but I was born well after 1929) there has not been a depression. There have been recessions, but no depression. There is work out there, you just have to qualify it or move to where there is work you are qualified for. Killin' a few out of season deer is more apt to cost you money than make you money. Face up to reality, quit living in Whole Earth Catalogs.

 

[brknarrow]

a country boy can and will survive. and will depending on his needs for survival

 

[AntiqueCollector]

There are retraining programs, trade schools, all sorts of ways to change your line of work if demand flops FOR your line of work. Heck, I was laid off in 82, what were the unemployment rates, near or over 10 percent at the time I think. I did have to relocate down the coast, sell one house, buy another, but I got it done. Now, unemployment is near 4 percent, all time lows.

You may not be able to do what you know how to do. You may have to retrain. You may just have to relocate. You can't live out life by hunting off the land and making no money, legally or not!

Don't matter what your training is you won't get a job other than min. wage in a lot of areas, mine is very close to being so. And if those people without jobs or decent paying ones, rent, have no savings, etc., just how do you think they will afford to move across the country? The official 4 percent unemployment rate is a joke, you should visit my locale. There simply aren't well paying jobs here, if you cross the border into NY or such you might, but then the higher cost of living/taxes eats that up quick not to mention the crappy laws. Since a lot of people, myself included, already have guns and lots of ammo, I don't think taking an illegal deer (unless caught) would cost anything hardly. Wouldn't make money either, but it'd save money (not having to buy much food from the store would save much money).

The last statement made me chuckle a little, since I'll be living in the bush in Alaska in the near future, living off the land (gardening, fishing, hunting, etc.) with very little income (no property taxes to worry about where I'll be!) but I will be trapping for income along with beekeeping/etc. if it works out. Some income will be needed even there, but there are ways of making it off the land (and I'm not saying I'll be poaching either, everything will be legal lol). My point is, think outside the standard box when it comes to making a living/and or surviving, but then I'm a real independently minded type. And if you don't think what I plan to do is realistic, I'll point you in the direction of some people are doing it right now.

 

[MCgunner]

The last statement made me chuckle a little, since I'll be living in the bush in Alaska in the near future, living off the land (gardening, fishing, hunting, etc.) with very little income (no property taxes to worry about where I'll be!) but I will be trapping for income along with beekeeping/etc. if it works out. Some income will be needed even there, but there are ways of making it off the land

And, what do you think would happen if everyone in the world decided to "live off the land" and shoot their food? If it weren't for modern agriculture, our species, all 7 BILLION plus of us, would be probably 6 billion plus over carrying capacity for our habitat. That's how deer almost vanished in the first place! There just simply isn't enough natural resources left and what there is must be managed or it will rapidly disappear.

And, if there aren't any jobs where you are, get the hell outta there and live where there are jobs. You planted like a tree or something? I'd have loved to live in New Mexico, but there's a reason that state only has 3 million people. I ride there to enjoy the state, ride home and go back to work. Live where the work is. I studied fisheries management with the idea that I could work in places like Alaska, but turns out there's more and better paying work as an environmental lab tech in the chemical plants around Texas. I figured, why work for Texas Parks and Wildlife so I can work in the outdoors when I can work for a plant, make enough money to buy a boat and PLAY in the outdoors? The jobs were very competitive with TPW and the pay sucked, so guess what I did? I adapted to the situation. I made sure I had a minor in chemistry once I figured all this out, for one thing. I went into school thinking they just gave you a BS and a job at the end of it, stupid idealistic kid. I spent my days doing BODs and bioassays and running the AA and the GCs and doing wet tests indoors in a lab around obnoxious chemicals, but I made good money, I saved a bunch of it, and I'm happy. I lived below my means and everyone at worked called ME "Grizzly Adams", imagine that, LOL! If you just wanna go up to Alaska and live like Grizzly Adams, go for it. But, they have game laws, too, have to have. They get many more like you up there and they're going to have to restrict limits/seasons, too. LOL! Even in Alaska, they have to restrict the harvest.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Don't matter what your training is you won't get a job other than min. wage in a lot of areas, mine is very close to being so. And if those people without jobs or decent paying ones, rent, have no savings, etc., just how do you think they will afford to move across the country?

How many weeks would a person have to work at minimum wage in order to buy a bus ticket? You can pull up stakes and move with as little as the clothes on your back. What's with the I can't afford to move crap? You can't afford to stay put. If you own any guns or anything you sell them and buy that bus ticket.

Odiously there are jobs in this country 3 million illegals aren't coming to this country to starve.

If our grandparents did it in the 1930's you can do it much more easily with this country's modern infastructure today

 

[AntiqueCollector]

And, what do you think would happen if everyone in the world decided to "live off the land" and shoot their food? If it weren't for modern agriculture, our species, all 7 BILLION plus of us, would be probably 6 billion plus over carrying capacity for our habitat. That's how deer almost vanished in the first place! There just simply isn't enough natural resources left and what there is must be managed or it will rapidly disappear.

And, if there aren't any jobs where you are, get the hell outta there and live where there are jobs. You planted like a tree or something? I'd have loved to live in New Mexico, but there's a reason that state only has 3 million people. I ride there to enjoy the state, ride home and go back to work. Live where the work is. I studied fisheries management with the idea that I could work in places like Alaska, but turns out there's more and better paying work as an environmental lab tech in the chemical plants around Texas. I figured, why work for Texas Parks and Wildlife so I can work in the outdoors when I can work for a plant, make enough money to buy a boat and PLAY in the outdoors? The jobs were very competitive with TPW and the pay sucked, so guess what I did? I adapted to the situation. I made sure I had a minor in chemistry once I figured all this out, for one thing. I went into school thinking they just gave you a BS and a job at the end of it, stupid idealistic kid. I spent my days doing BODs and bioassays and running the AA and the GCs and doing wet tests indoors in a lab around obnoxious chemicals, but I made good money, I saved a bunch of it, and I'm happy. I lived below my means and everyone at worked called ME "Grizzly Adams", imagine that, LOL! If you just wanna go up to Alaska and live like Grizzly Adams, go for it. But, they have game laws, too, have to have. They get many more like you up there and they're going to have to restrict limits/seasons, too. LOL! Even in Alaska, they have to restrict the harvest.

I don't think there are very many who have plans to "live off the land" because it is not appealing to most. I'm not particularly interested in making money but rather in being self-sufficient (or at least as close as is possible these days). I don't find hunting to be much of a sport personally, my interest in it is simply to be self-reliant, which gives me a good feeling. Some find it crazy but I enjoy working in the outdoors on things like gardens, cutting wood, etc. as long as it;s for myself. And I've spent the last 4 years or so saving every penny (doing everything from making my own soap for basically free, growing as much as possible in what little space I have during the summer, fishing some though I honestly don't trust the water here enough to eat a lot of fish from it because of pollution, etc.) and doing numerous things to make money (from silver/gold speculating which turned a nice profit (and also gold prospecting but that's a lot of work for little return in my state because there is so little gold) to antique flipping (buying stuff cheap at yard sales and such or even dumpster diving, and selling to dealers and online), precisely so I can get out of here and escape the job trap. I've also collected all the tools (mostly hand tools to avoid needing power/fuel) and a lot of the more expensive building items to build my cabin (windows, stove, etc.) fairly cheaply (and even free at times) by taking my time to track down the stuff at yard sales/auctions/etc.. It's actually rather daunting the costs in moving from one end of the country to another, I suspect I'll spend almost as much on transportation as I will on the land I will buy. No road to the land, any large items will need to go by plane or maybe by snowmobile in the winter, and those bush planes aren't cheap (understandably so given their expenses and risks and such). Sure I could take a backpack of stuff and hitchike across the country, but then I'd be pretty much screwed with no tools and such, all of which would be more expensive to buy up there, and then I'd be forced to take a "normal" job for the first year or two. And despite the lack of jobs here, I have stayed because I know enough people to get connections to antiques dealers (who seem to sell primarily to the rich out of staters who have made my state their playground) and sources for free/cheap tools/supplies/etc. Knowing people and not being a stranger can really help you get by.

Alaska most definately does have game laws and such, but I intend to move to an area where I will (after a year to qualify for residency) be able to get subsistence permits, giving me higher limits and less restrictions, fairly easily (not the tier 2 areas). Actually, seeing the attitudes expressed on other forums btwn. Alaskan sport hunters/fishers versus the subsistence hunters/fishers, has shown me that there are many sport users who evidently wouldn't mind people starving as long as they get their trophies. This is not a slam on sport hunters at all, but when push comes to shove it's interesting seeing how people land. Basically what I'm getting at, is there's a clash between two different kinds of lifestyles in some places (like AK), with one (a fairly small number actually percentage-wise) being those who want to be self-reliant/rely on certain resources for survival, and those who work "normal" jobs to get by but enjoy using those same resources in their spare time (but do not necessarily rely on them for survival).

Odiously there are jobs in this country 3 million illegals aren't coming to this country to starve.

Yes but they don't mind bending or breaking the laws to get by on the low wages they get, or using the welfare system (illegally under false or stolen SS numbers). Lots of them up here, who work on the farms (hard to believe to many but it's true, they're up here this far north) and I suspect a large percentage of them poach for food to get by, or simply steal in the fields/orchards (but I guess the farmers know they make more hiring them despite the losses than hiring locals at liveable wages).

You can't afford to stay put. If you own any guns or anything you sell them and buy that bus ticket.

And then I'd need to buy them again to get by as I want to live in the future, and with inflation, the prices will be higher than what I sold them for earlier. I actually have a fairly large collection of valuable antiques (furniture, non-electric lamps, glass ware, and a lot more) and sure, I could theoretically sell it all and move quicker, but with inflation what it is now (argue official stats all you want but they're wrong, flat out, reality is far worse than they say) and with growing interest in some items it'd be foolish to do so, and better to hold off selling much of it. I sell only a portion of what I find (all of it has been cheap) which is a large part of my income currently (well, actually not now, the winter is the slow season for buying items, but I do sell here and there).

If our grandparents did it in the 1930's you can do it much more easily with this country's modern infastructure today

I think you'll find if you research the Great Depression carefully (being a history nut I have done my share) that a significant percentage resorted to illegal poaching, making of alcohol, etc. Not a large percentage resorted to actual crimes with victims (like outright robbing) but many did "victimless" crimes to get by and in many areas the law turned a blind eye to it (not really the feds, but I know of several examples of local police or sheriffs turning blind eyes to things unless they got complaints, and letting people off with warnings if caught). There may be more technology now to utilize but there are also more laws and regulations (can't just sell pies or home canned foods or whatever from your front yard like many did to help, need a license/inspections/etc. on any sort of business activity like that) and there's far less leniency in the law, and the law has more technology and ability to track now to catch things that many people did back then without much trouble.