Kaboom?

[mwsenoj]

Shooting my Glock 22 (40 S&W) with 5.0gr bullseye in front of a home cast 175 TC and got one that blew smoke and soot and spit brass. I found the piece of brass, and it had a chunk missing at the base or near the web and there was a hairline crack near the case mouth. I also found a little chunk brass. Here's a very short video showing you what happened...

https://youtu.be/22_5HwvHgjU

Anybody have a clue why this might've happened? I wasn't actually the one shooting it, it was my dad. He said the recoil was definitely different but I'm loading on a Dilon 650 and have a powder check after my powder station, so I'm wondering if this was just a bad piece of brass to begin with.

 

[newfalguy101]

I would say defective brass, I have never seen brass fail that way, also I don't see any indications of pressure.

weird

 

[rcmodel]

Looks to me like it might have already been cracked next to the case web before.

5.0 is a max load, depending on whose data you look at though.

Older Alliant data says 4.5 is Max with a cast 180.

rc

 

[MEHavey]

I see defective brass... big time.

 

[LiveLife]

Glock 22 (40 S&W) with 5.0gr bullseye in front of a home cast 175 TC and got one that blew smoke and soot and spit brass. I found the piece of brass, and it had a chunk missing at the base or near the web and there was a hairline crack near the case mouth

Older Alliant data says 4.5 is Max with a cast 180.

2004 Alliant load data lists 4.5 gr as max charge for 180 gr lead bullet loaded to 1.125" OAL - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

Whether powder charge (over-charge) was the cause, it looks like case wall failure/rupture.

With mixed range brass, it is for this reason why I prefer not to load at near max/max load data.

Cases fired with hot loads then resized multiple times (especially overly expanded cases push-through resized with U-die or FCD) can experience thinning of case wall at the base or become brittle (less malleable) from work hardening which can result in case wall failure/rupture.

Another factor to consider is bullet setback.

We often give much consideration to "finished" OAL/COL but not necessarily to "chambered" OAL/bullet setback. Even if you are using below max load data, if the bullet seats deeper when chambered from the magazine, chamber pressure increase can go way past max pressures and add to the case wall failure/rupture, especially if the case wall has been thinned/weakened/work hardened.

While with mixed range brass, we may not be able to test "chambered" OAL/bullet setback of every round, we can measure samples of different head stamp rounds for case wall thickness and see if there is significant bullet setback with any particular head stamp cases as I found case wall thickness varies based on head stamp and can affect neck tension/bullet setback.

If significant bullet setback occurs, additional factor to consider is compression of powder charge.

Many have posted results of chamber pressures exponentially increasing with deeper seated bullets. I think the exponential increase in chamber pressure (instead of linear) could be contributed by powder charge compression, especially if you are using max charge. So I would check to see if the working OAL/bullet seating depth compresses the powder charge and use longer OAL. Beside, most 40S&W TCFP nose profile bullets can be loaded longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" to produce greater accuracy - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

So with mixed range brass with unknown reload history, consider not using max powder charge, using longer OAL and checking bullet setback (when fed/chambered from the magazine) for some buffer.

 

[mwsenoj]

Another factor to consider is bullet setback.

Good point.

It may have been the case that the brass had been work hardened and cracked at the mouth the last time it was shot. That could have caused the case to loosely grip the bullet and slide back good and far, putting further stresss on the already brittle web/head.

 

[vongh]

I hope your dad is doing ok . The busted part of the brass looks like the shape of the brass that ive seen in the past that some people call the glock bulge.

 

[mwsenoj]

I hope your dad is doing ok . The busted part of the brass looks like the shape of the brass that ive seen in the past that some people call the glock bulge.

He kept on shooting! Doing fine thanks. We shot for about three hours that day. The kaboom happened earlier in the range session.

Regarding the glock bulge, I checked for that first thing. No sign of it. I mostly shoot my glock 22 and load more rounds of 40 than anything else. I run a lone wolf bbl in my glock, so it was supported.

 

[snakeye]

Looks like a Glock bulge blowout

 

[mstreddy]

OP, you are shooting them in a Lone Wolf barrel which gives you more support than the Glock barrels, but part of the weakening might be from whatever barrel it had been previously loaded in.

I've even had that type of failure in factory brass on the first firing, both in 9MM and in 40 S&W. And not only in Glocks -- A Beretta 92, a Beretta 96, 9MM AR-15. And yes, from time to time in my reloads, even though I don't push the envelope with my loads.

But, the questions/comments some are posing above -- "5.0 is above Alliant max". You may want to dial it back a notch. Just my 2 cents.

 

[GaryL]

My oldest Alliant manual (1990's) also lists 4.5 gr BE max.

Another factor to consider is bullet setback.

This is a good point. At some point I noticed some of my 45acp brass doesn't hold bullets very well. It was a couple specific head stamps, so then I got into sorting the brass and some of it gets reserved for Missouri Bullets cast with the crimp groove. As long as the brass doesn't spring back, a slight crimp into the groove prevents any setback.

40 SW is one of those rounds where it's a good idea to use powders that fill the case. It might be a few pennies more at the end of the day, but failures can be very expensive, so, to me anyway, it's cheap insurance.

 

[AzShooter1]

Looks like the round wasn't fully into battery.

 

[CoThG]

40 Glocks go kaboom all the time. Unsupported chamber.

 

[Sunray]

The hairline crack near the case mouth is very likely an overworked case.
Sounds like an over Max load in an unsupported chamber to me too. 5.5 is max for a 180 grain jacketed. Don't have .40 S&W data myself.

 

[scramasax]

Very lucky. A month ago a client came in to pick up the rifle I built for him. Wish I had the pictures to post he showed. One of his shooting buddies used reloaded ammo from one of his friends and now has 3 fingers and 2/3 of his hand left. I am trying to get the pictures of the gun and hand sent to me so I can post them at the shop.

There are warnings on guns for a reason.

 

[mwsenoj]

I am going to tune down my Bullseye load to 4.5 gr and see how I like it. If I were using brand new brass each time, then I might push it back up a bit.

All I have ever used in 40 is Bullseye from two 8# kegs my dad gave me from when he used to shoot a bunch and load back in the early/mid 90s.

I've been considering going with a different powder but all of the usual suspects (231, aa2, hs6, autocomp, hp-38) are out of stock where I have checked. Anyone want to recommend a decent powder for 40s&w that I may have a chance of finding these days?

 

[grandpawj]

I have always used Unique. No problems, maybe just lucky.

 

[LiveLife]

All I have ever used in 40 is Bullseye from two 8# kegs my dad gave me from when he used to shoot a bunch and load back in the early/mid 90s.

I've been considering going with a different powder but all of the usual suspects (231, aa2, hs6, autocomp, hp-38) are out of stock where I have checked. Anyone want to recommend a decent powder for 40s&w

Disclaimer: Following post lists loads that are not currently published or not published so use them at your own risk.

Another factor to consider in regards to KaBooms is temperature sensitivity of powders. Many powders increase chamber pressure as powder/ambient temperature rise. As you shoot, barrel temperature can increase to over several hundred degrees, and longer a chambered round stays in the hot barrel, the hotter the powder charge will get and subsequently increase chamber pressure when the powder is ignited.

These powders are reported to have standard/temperature sensitivity vs reverse/inverse temperature sensitivity - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10117881#post10117881

Standard/Temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at higher temps):
- Clays
- Titegroup
- W231/HP-38
- Power Pistol

Reverse/inverse temperature sensitive powders (produces higher velocities at lower temps):
- Competition
- WST
- Solo 1000
- N320 (but some claim [standard] temp sensitivity)
- SR7625
- Universal
- WSF
- Silhouette

If you are going to load at max, I guess you could consider reverse temperature sensitive powders like Universal, WSF, etc. for 40S&W but if powder availability is an issue, I would think using below max charges would be a better option to guard against KaBooms with mixed range brass.

Besides, why do you need to use Bullseye at max charge? If you simply need to punch holes in paper, you can lower the powder charge until your pistol reliably cycles the slide, extract/eject spent cases and still maintain accuracy. If you need higher velocities, you can obtain higher velocities with slower burning powders. While I have used W231/HP-38 for target loads over the years, I used WSF for full-power loads with higher velocities.


I have loaded 40S&W with Bullseye/Clays/WST/Red Dot/Promo/Titegroup/Green Dot/W231/HP-38/Unique/Universal/BE-86/Power Pistol/WSF/Herco/HS-6/AutoComp/CFE Pistol.

Since 40S&W is a higher pressure caliber with particularly "snappy recoil" many complain about, I usually recommend powders slower burning than W231/HP-38 (with the exception of Green Dot) to those new to 40S&W as slower powders tend to produce less snappy recoil (more of a push than snap).

When using W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders for 40S&W, I prefer to stay below near max/max loads and tend to load at mid-to-high range load data which also produces milder more comfortable recoil and LOWER CHAMBER PRESSURES which I believe is paramount when using mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times.

Can you load 40S&W with Bullseye? Sure you can as there are published load data for it, but it's a powder that I don't recommend for 40S&W at near max/max loads same as I don't recommend Titegroup for 40S&W to new reloaders as it burns hot and violent with very narrow load range (start charge is already near max charge for many loads).

Here's a listing of powders grouped by relative burn rates you could use for 40S&W (no published load data for 40S&W with some of the powders) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10094185#post10094185

Faster burning pistol powders:

No. 2 - Bullseye - Clays - WST - Red Dot/Promo - 700X - TiteGroup - Solo 1000 - Am. Select - International - Trail Boss - PB - N320

No. 5 - W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - SR7625

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - BE-86 - Power Pistol - WSF - N330

HS6 - AutoComp - CFE Pistol - Long Shot - Herco - 800X - True Blue - N340

If you want to load higher velocity loads, I would suggest Unique and slower burn rate powders. If you just want to load practice rounds to punch holes in paper, I would suggest around W231/HP-38 burn rate or faster but loaded at lower powder charges.

FYI, I did my load development for 40S&W with Promo (using Red Dot load data) in this thread but for 180 gr lead bullet, I would suggest 4.0 gr powder charge - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6509911#post6509911

If you are looking for accuracy, I got very good accuracy with Herco in this thread using plated/lead bullets - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743416

And I highly recommend BE-86 for 40S&W (my new favorite powder for 40S&W) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9644303#post9644303

 

[Toprudder]

I've been considering going with a different powder but all of the usual suspects (231, aa2, hs6, autocomp, hp-38) are out of stock where I have checked. Anyone want to recommend a decent powder for 40s&w that I may have a chance of finding these days?

I've tried, and had good luck with, the following:

3N37, AA#7, Autocomp, BE86, CFE Pistol, Power Pistol, and Titegroup. (The ones in bold are the ones I like the most).

Most of those were with 155gn plated (Rainier and Xtreme) but I also tried Bayou Hitek coated bullets with Titegroup and had good results. I've seen all of those at the last couple of local gun shows.

Side note: I've recently seen all of the ones you listed except for AA#2 - I have not seen that in a long time and the rumor I hear is that it will be a few more months. I lucked out, the one vendor I work with at the guns shows ran across some old stock he had of AA#2 and sold a pound to me. Just shot ladder loads in 45acp and really like it.

 

[mwsenoj]

Thanks BDS and Toprudder for taking the time to help me out! I appreciate it.

 

[Jlr2267]

40 Glocks go kaboom all the time. Unsupported chamber.

internet folklore

 

[stubbicatt]

I had a kaboom in 40 S&W one time. I reckon it was 10 maybe 12 years ago.

Everybody is responsible for his own safety, and while many might not agree with my decision to never again shoot 40, I'm sure that everyone will agree that it is my right to choose this course of action for myself. I don't know if it was a case failure, an unsupported chamber, or perhaps it was an overload or bullet setback. - I don't think it was an overload, but in the realm of possibility it could have been. It could have been a combination of factors.

It is my belief that these unsupported chambers are dangerous, so I have chosen to avoid 40 S&W.

Whatever the causes, I still wear the scar on the knuckle of my trigger finger where it joins my hand.

OP I'm glad nobody was hurt. Our hobby carries with it risks, risks which one may try to mitigate. Your story has reminded me of these risks. Thanks for sharing.

 

[rsrocket1]

If your bullet is the Lee 401-175-TC, that's the same one I use in my M&P 40. I've shot over 20,000 rounds of that bullet and it works great. My normal load is 5.0g Unique or 4.0g Red Dot for a low to mid 900 fps MV. If you still have any Bullseye left, use it. It's a very good powder even though it is a bit sooty even when used at full pressure. I've shot 5.0g with BE to get just under 1000 fps but settled on 4.3g when using that powder. 4.3g gives me a load very similar to my usual Unique and Red Dot loads. The 5.0g charge did not show any signs of overpressure and should have been well within the safe limits of pressure for that round so long as you were seated to 1.135" COL.

Unless you had bullet setback or an overcharge, I think you simply got unlucky with some ancient brass. Case splits like that are typical of well worn brass and the blowout did not eject the magazine or crack the frame (typical of an overpressure kaboom where the case blows out in the back).

Handgun/shotgun powders are hard to come by right now.
If you see an 8# jug of Alliant Unique or Hodgdon Universal grab it. They are nearly identical powders and are great in 40 S&W. BE-86 should also be a good powder for your needs and is being strongly pushed by Alliant although I've never seen it on the shelves in the past couple of years. Titegroup is OK, but don't go much more than the low 900's with that powder because it is very fast. It's also dense and a double charge doesn't take much room in the case so you must be careful loading it.

I've also run a pound of 800-X and while it is an ideal powder pressure wise (generates good velocity with low pressures), the flakes are huge and metering is difficult. 20/28 works great but there isn't much load data on it so if you aren't comfortable with load development, it would be tough but it is an excellent sub for Unique at about 5-10% less charge per load for the same performance.

That's my $0.02. bds has great recommendations and has done extensive testing with powders. He's a good resource and a valuable source of info on this board.

 

[MEHavey]

Alliant Unique or Hodgdon Universal grab it. They are nearly identical powders ...

Almost...

Last week I switched between powders for my `73Win in 44-40.

Standard Unique load was a 30:1/Cast 200grTC/Unique/8.1gr (Harrells Measure set@119) -- QL says 13,800psi
This week's Universal load at 8.1gr requires the Harrells be set at a lower volume (100) and QL says 16,600psi

Both give the same chrono'd velocity, and both hit same 100-yard point-of-impact... w/Universal having just a hair slightly better group (~1.3-1.5")

 

[LiveLife]

Lee 401-175-TC ... 4.0g Red Dot for a low to mid 900 fps MV.

I've shot 5.0g with BE to get just under 1000 fps but settled on 4.3g when using that powder. 4.3g gives me a load very similar to my usual Unique and Red Dot loads. The 5.0g charge did not show any signs of overpressure and should have been well within the safe limits of pressure for that round so long as you were seated to 1.135" COL.

+1 on 4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo for 175/180 gr lead bullet. While 5.0 gr of Bullseye may not have shown signs of overpressure, if the bullet setback, powder compression and/or case wall thinning/weakening occurred, OP's KaBoom could have happened.