Kahrs Incorrectly Get Bad Rap

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WHOA...may have just solved my PM9 issue. Went over to Kahr Talk and some folks had their mag spring installed backwards at the factory (they are flipped front to back in the mag) Once I fixed it the 2nd round in the mag is now MUCH more visible and on an angle much more consistent with round #1. Previously my 2nd round was buried in the mag and almost horizontal. I can't imagine that this won't help the "nosedving". Maybe others should check as well:

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EDIT: Cant go shoot right now, but gun now feeds from the slingshot easily even when I drag it a little. Just this afternoon slingshotting was a sure nosedive-jam. SO far SO good.
 
I wasn't terribly impressed with any of several Kahr pistols people have allowed me to handle and shoot.
I really don't care for the association this manufacturer has with the Har Krishna cult so that is another turn off to this pistol line for me.
 
The Kahr K9 was removed from the NYPD acceptable firearm list because the trigger is lighter than the required 12# called for, and Kahr refused to make the trigger that heavy. Reliability wasn't a cause.

Exactly, it was idiot Cops that don't know trigger safety and relied on a heavy trigger to stop them from having a ND then the gun itself.
 
Its the idiots who run the police department...they're not the cops, it's a huge distinction :) The powers that be should spend a few extra days on training rather than who knows how many dollar$ testing and trying to have to fool-proof guns designed.
 
Exactly, it was idiot Cops that don't know trigger safety and relied on a heavy trigger to stop them from having a ND then the gun itself.

Really? Selection of a firearm for a Police Officer involves considerations that a civilian doesn't necessarily have to contend with. Scenarios where the Officer is running with a weapon drawn, potentially wrestling with a suspect with the weapon out, or retention scenario's are considered when selecting weapons and things like trigger mechanisms. Our minimum here is an 8 pound trigger on Glocks.;)

LD
 
Really? Selection of a firearm for a Police Officer involves considerations that a civilian doesn't necessarily have to contend with. Scenarios where the Officer is running with a weapon drawn, potentially wrestling with a suspect with the weapon out, or retention scenario's are considered when selecting weapons and things like trigger mechanisms. Our minimum here is an 8 pound trigger on Glocks.

Weird, most departments in my area run Glocks with a standard 5.5 lb trigger and they aren't shooting themselves, others, or just having NDs without meaning to. The Kahrs were allowed as off duty guns or back ups so they weren't doing all that stuff regularly and that most of the NDs were just fooling around with the gun at home. Finger off the trigger till your ready to shoot isn't that difficult to master. I understand that in the heat of things you can forget things but if you practice trigger safety then you won't break it.
 
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Scenarios where the Officer is running with a weapon drawn, potentially wrestling with a suspect with the weapon out, or retention scenario's are considered when selecting weapons and things like trigger mechanisms. Our minimum here is an 8 pound trigger on Glocks.

While agree...the NYPD has taken trigger weight to a new level... Some of the off-duty revolvers were off the charts. They redid the Glock trigger at least twice during my stint and it was good to start with...THEY made it crappy. I think we started at 8 and ended at 12??? The Ruger must be 1.5x as much!
 
While agree...the NYPD has taken trigger weight to a new level... Some of the off-duty revolvers were off the charts. They redid the Glock trigger at least twice during my stint and it was good to start with...THEY made it crappy. I think we started at 8 and ended at 12??? The Ruger must be 1.5x as much!
Since this is dealing with off duty carry and BUG's, I would venture this is more related to non retention holsters and those without certain safety mechanisms of a duty rig, rather than supposing Officers are "idiots". Our deletion of the Kahr came as an exclusive result of a year long study by the department Armorer, and a consistent pattern of feeding issues.

LD
 
I wasn't calling all of them idiots, just the select few that don't understand trigger safety as that was the cause of those NDs and more specifically them just playing with the gun and not actually using it for their work. The gun isn't the issue here, it's the people wielding them. I understand the reliability issues but NYPD got rid of them largely because of the light trigger.

I'm not dissing all Cops, just those select few that shouldn't be handling a firearm.
 
Do Kahrs "deserve" their reputation as somewhat unreliable? Yes, I think they do. There are simply too many of them that have experienced problems. I base my judgment from hanging out on the KahrTalk forum for the past three or four years where much of the discussion has to do with troubleshooting problems that shooters have with new ones and the various tribulations they go through in getting those problems resolved.

I also think that once you get one working right, the probability is that it will stay that way.

I own four Kahrs, having bought my first one about five years ago. I really like the design and especially the triggers. Three have been terrific from the get go. The one that wasn't (a K9, believe it or not), took several hundred rounds of fooling around with until I finally thought to try a heavier recoil spring. It just would not either feed right or return to full battery with any degree of reliability. I messed about with different ammo, different magazines, different lubrication, etc. After I went to a heavier spring, it was fine and stayed that way.
 
I wasn't calling all of them idiots, just the select few that don't understand trigger safety as that was the cause of those NDs and more specifically them just playing with the gun and not actually using it for their work. The gun isn't the issue here, it's the people wielding them. I understand the reliability issues but NYPD got rid of them largely because of the light trigger.

I'm not dissing all Cops, just those select few that shouldn't be handling a firearm.

What ND's are you referring to? Are you claiming that NYPD chose a 12 # trigger as a direct result of off duty ND's?:confused:

LD
 
maia007 Good thing you did not have one of many 4th gen glocks with issues ,right. Ant one that trust there pistol with out rounning several hundred rounds trouble free is longing for a screw up. Today that can happen with many psitols.


The problems with large departments is the class of officers they have to cull from and the lack of quailty training. Thats the reason a glock might have a 10lb trigger. The officers never learned to keep there finger off the trigger till ready to kill someone. Stress or not it must be learned. Everone remember the youtube cop video of the officer that damnded near killed the BG and did wounded an officer that was sitting on the BGs back cuffing him. THATS the problem, training. For these departments if an officer is to have a backup or off duty fiream it should be a compact version of what they carry and have the same trigger pull weight as there duty gun has. Period. Don't give them any more of a chance to do something stupid than if they were on duty.

Could you imagine how bad it could be if the run of the mill officer had a SA 1911 with a 5lb trigger pull.
 
maia007 Good thing you did not have one of many 4th gen glocks with issues ,right. Ant one that trust there pistol with out rounning several hundred rounds trouble free is longing for a screw up. Today that can happen with many psitols.


The problems with large departments is the class of officers they have to cull from and the lack of quailty training. Thats the reason a glock might have a 10lb trigger. The officers never learned to keep there finger off the trigger till ready to kill someone. Stress or not it must be learned. Everone remember the youtube cop video of the officer that damnded near killed the BG and did wounded an officer that was sitting on the BGs back cuffing him. THATS the problem, training. For these departments if an officer is to have a backup or off duty fiream it should be a compact version of what they carry and have the same trigger pull weight as there duty gun has. Period. Don't give them any more of a chance to do something stupid than if they were on duty.

Could you imagine how bad it could be if the run of the mill officer had a SA 1911 with a 5lb trigger pull.

Since you've used this same reply on 4 different threads now, maybe you could start giving documented evidence instead of a personal bias.......and Grandpa's off the cuff comment doesn't count as documented evidence. I don't mean to be an a**, but your repeated, factless rant is getting old.;)

LD
 
http://www.saysuncle.com/2011/12/12/or-you-could-teach-them-real-gun-safety/

This is one of many links to the same thing. I doubt their NDs are going to be in the news considering how that would make the NYPD look if their officers can't handle their guns.

What ND's are you referring to? Are you claiming that NYPD chose a 12 # trigger as a direct result of off duty ND's?

My understanding is that they started with an 8 lb trigger pull so officers would be used to the trigger pull and then moved up to the 12 lb. What other explanation would there be if they weren't having NDs with the 8lb trigger?
 
http://www.saysuncle.com/2011/12/12/or-you-could-teach-them-real-gun-safety/

This is one of many links to the same thing. I doubt their NDs are going to be in the news considering how that would make the NYPD look if their officers can't handle their guns.



My understanding is that they started with an 8 lb trigger pull so officers would be used to the trigger pull and then moved up to the 12 lb. What other explanation would there be if they weren't having NDs with the 8lb trigger?
An 8lb trigger comes stock from the factory and the department Armorer could have ordered the change. I truly would like to know the reason/logic behind the switch. I'll see what I can find on officer.com;)

LD
 
An 8lb trigger comes stock from the factory and the department Armorer could have ordered the change. I truly would like to know the reason/logic behind the switch. I'll see what I can find on officer.com

LD

I'm assuming you are talking about Glocks that are intended for duty. One gun magazine I read, the writer who is a cop got a G35 to review and it had a 5.5 instead of the 3.5 lb trigger which comes stock in a G34/35. At least that's what I think I know.
 
I'm assuming you are talking about Glocks that are intended for duty. One gun magazine I read, the writer who is a cop got a G35 to review and it had a 5.5 instead of the 3.5 lb trigger which comes stock in a G34/35. At least that's what I think I know.
Yeah, 8lb is the standard for LE issue, however a department can specify up or down. I carried a PM-9 as a pocket gun for over a year, and I can't imagine an AD with that mile long trigger pull.

LD
 
So are your replies. Stop defending a deptment heavy trigger choice. Why would any department change to a heavier trigger pull than a firearm is design with? To stop unwanted shootings? Stress related shootings? To many officers don't get enough practice as is so don't apply that same stress off duty to a person useing different firearm and lighter and different functioning trigger and not except a shots to be fired that was not ment to be. It does not matter the brand . Pick one. You feel differntly , well tough. Your definding a department gets old too. Train the officers to use a glock 5.5 lb trigger or buy some thing very different in design. Maybe some should stay with a older da only pistols long and firm right from the touch instead of the shorter stricker triggers on many pistols. Still allways goes back to training. Get any anyone use to a 8lb or 10lb trigger and then a 5lb or 6lb trigger pull is going to cause problems off duty if they place there finger on the trigger. Just no reason for a 8lb or heavier trigger pull.
 
So are your replies. Stop defending a deptment heavy trigger choice. Why would any department change to a heavier trigger pull than a firearm is design with? To stop unwanted shootings? Stress related shootings? To many officers don't get enough practice as is so don't apply that same stress off duty to a person useing different firearm and lighter and different functioning trigger and not except a shots to be fired that was not ment to be. It does not matter the brand . Pick one. You feel differntly , well tough. Your definding a department gets old too. Train the officers to use a glock 5.5 lb trigger or buy some thing very different in design. Maybe some should stay with a older da only pistols long and firm right from the touch instead of the shorter stricker triggers on many pistols. Still allways goes back to training. Get any anyone use to a 8lb or 10lb trigger and then a 5lb or 6lb trigger pull is going to cause problems off duty if they place there finger on the trigger. Just no reason for a 8lb or heavier trigger pull.

OK, let's deal with your personal bias one complaint at a time. You claim Officers don't get enough practice, and you've made this claim repeatedly on a national forum, not isolating a specific department or State, so what facts do you base this claim on? As I told you 3 topics ago, here in Indiana, firearms training is weaved in to every single week of our 12 week State/County academy, and our local academy which is 26 weeks. By the time a recruit graduates he/she has fired over 10,000 rounds on the Glock, shotgun and AR. How does that compare to your training, assuming you've had any?

LD
 
Have a bit of an idea. i was going to be a florida wildlife officer back in 1976.. Ripped my acl in my 6th week at the training center. 1 really screwed up surgery later and a life of meds and no FWC job.. I grew up hunting fishing with the county sheriff and rode bikes with a few officers from the police department, sheriffs department and the fwl ever other week or when they could. Shoot some indoor matchs tru the year when I could. It is not the training going in thats a concern or the education. Its how they train through out the years or lack of in many departments other than quals during there time as an officer the department. My "training" started at a young age and growing up in a gun culture, 43 years of simple being around and shooting firearms regularly.

The guys I road motorcyles with did practice on there own, We shoot ever other week for an hour. A couple shot with the USPSA back then. Its there words not mine that allways kept the lack of training outside of whats required in my mind. I still say in touch with a couple of them. To many around the state just did not shot outside what was required buy the department. same up there. Most would love to have a range near by to practice on. Even the counties around use have to share time with several other counies and the damd public keeps whin'n about the nose evertime they try to build a new range. Most of them get comfy with the off duty piece and thats that. My old sherrif atleast when I lived there alowed the officers to pick from a group of handgunbrands and did not tie them to a single brand for what they carry on duty and backups they bought at a discount and that could be used off duty. They tended to be a compact version of there duty pistols. I have been gone from there for 15 years now. Still talk with my old police/ sheriff bubby. he bought my last home down there and was the best shot with the city , retired there now with the sherrif depo and is still one of the better qualifiers. i could allways out shot him atleast till i leaft there. he still said most don't shoot outside what the sheriffs depo needs of them.

Now I could care less what is done in indiania. I don't care what you do. I do care how people carry different type handguns that don't train enought as is .with them or out side when needed of them. And when departments supply a handgun that has a trigger pull as heavy as, lets say NY. Then allows the officers to carry something so very different, thats the problem. Some departments have a say in what your back up will be. Maybe more should have a say on what you carry off duty if not your backup when a handgun can a feel and function so differently. I learned 26 years ago from a smithy/retired officer to not change anymore than you can when you carry thru your life. Dam that should be common sence. Officers are no different from most of use. Subject to makeing the same mistakes ,maybe even more so depending on there day to day stress so thats all the more reason not to carry anythig that functions so differenty from your duty pistol.

Now if you still have a problem with that its all your. Thats my view and will allways be the same. Now I am 56 retired and still manage to shoot ever week winter & summer or atleast almost. Now you can continue to praise your ind .leos all you want but not all get to train as much as you think yours must to keep them so highly tuned. when off duty and useing a very different pistol.
 
Have a bit of an idea. i was going to be a florida wildlife officer back in 1976.. Ripped my acl in my 6th week at the training center. 1 really screwed up surgery later and a life of meds and no FWC job.. I grew up hunting fishing with the county sheriff and rode bikes with a few officers from the police department, sheriffs department and the fwl ever other week or when they could. Shoot some indoor matchs tru the year when I could. It is not the training going in thats a concern or the education. Its how they train through out the years or lack of in many departments other than quals during there time as an officer the department. My "training" started at a young age and growing up in a gun culture, 43 years of simple being around and shooting firearms regularly.

The guys I road motorcyles with did practice on there own, We shoot ever other week for an hour. A couple shot with the USPSA back then. Its there words not mine that allways kept the lack of training outside of whats required in my mind. I still say in touch with a couple of them. To many around the state just did not shot outside what was required buy the department. same up there. Most would love to have a range near by to practice on. Even the counties around use have to share time with several other counies and the damd public keeps whin'n about the nose evertime they try to build a new range. Most of them get comfy with the off duty piece and thats that. My old sherrif atleast when I lived there alowed the officers to pick from a group of handgunbrands and did not tie them to a single brand for what they carry on duty and backups they bought at a discount and that could be used off duty. They tended to be a compact version of there duty pistols. I have been gone from there for 15 years now. Still talk with my old police/ sheriff bubby. he bought my last home down there and was the best shot with the city , retired there now with the sherrif depo and is still one of the better qualifiers. i could allways out shot him atleast till i leaft there. he still said most don't shoot outside what the sheriffs depo needs of them.

Now I could care less what is done in indiania. I don't care what you do. I do care how people carry different type handguns that don't train enought as is .with them or out side when needed of them. And when departments supply a handgun that has a trigger pull as heavy as, lets say NY. Then allows the officers to carry something so very different, thats the problem. Some departments have a say in what your back up will be. Maybe more should have a say on what you carry off duty if not your backup when a handgun can a feel and function so differently. I learned 26 years ago from a smithy/retired officer to not change anymore than you can when you carry thru your life. Dam that should be common sence. Officers are no different from most of use. Subject to makeing the same mistakes ,maybe even more so depending on there day to day stress so thats all the more reason not to carry anythig that functions so differenty from your duty pistol.

Now if you still have a problem with that its all your. Thats my view and will allways be the same. Now I am 56 retired and still manage to shoot ever week winter & summer or atleast almost. Now you can continue to praise your ind .leos all you want but not all get to train as much as you think yours must to keep them so highly tuned. when off duty and useing a very different pistol.

Then maybe you need to narrow your comments to the very limited number of LEO's/departments you've encountered while hunting and fishing. I acknowledge the fact that in your area of rural North Carolina there may be some under-trained rural/small town Officers, but it's not a mainstream problem. Again, this isn't rocket science, off duty guns and BUG's are often pocket carried, vest carried, or in non retention holsters, so it's not out of the question to require higher trigger pull pounds. Is 12 lb excessive? In my opinion yes, but I would research before dissing an entire department or profession.

LD
 
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What a childish word ,"dis". You are to close minded to think that officers year to year shooting skills could and should be better. You must feel they all get all the shooting they need. Then why do some departsments alter firearms triggers?

For any department to place firearms in the hands of officers with trigger pulls as heavily modified from stock as many do that leaves room for major changes and improvment. If you can't see that ,its your problem. Simple enough. Then to allow them to carry a box stock lighter trigger pull in any pistol of a very different design, well sh*t will happen and does. Don't blame a handgun.

Do you not see the training problem there? Now run your mouth ,or fingers about how great indiana is and how the few leos i know means nothing. It does not take much to realize when some department use a firearm as designed with no modified trigger and then spec what they can carry for backup so that the funtion is the same, some one is paying attention to details. Training will never be enough or done right when pistols are modified from the original design. But i am surely glad to find some that shoot buying ammo out of there own pockets and going to a public range to do so.
 
What a childish word ,"dis". You are to close minded to think that officers year to year shooting skills could and should be better. You must feel they all get all the shooting they need. Then why do some departsments alter firearms triggers?

For any department to place firearms in the hands of officers with trigger pulls as heavily modified from stock as many do that leaves room for major changes and improvment. If you can't see that ,its your problem. Simple enough. Then to allow them to carry a box stock lighter trigger pull in any pistol of a very different design, well sh*t will happen and does. Don't blame a handgun.

Do you not see the training problem there? Now run your mouth ,or fingers about how great indiana is and how the few leos i know means nothing. It does not take much to realize when some department use a firearm as designed with no modified trigger and then spec what they can carry for backup so that the funtion is the same, some one is paying attention to details. Training will never be enough or done right when pistols are modified from the original design. But i am surely glad to find some that shoot buying ammo out of there own pockets and going to a public range to do so.

Do they get enough practice? Probably not, but at least here they qualify 4 times per year with every weapon they carry.....duty, BUG, off duty, shotgun and AR. This gives the Range Master the opportunity to evaluate their performance and deal with any weaknesses or problems that crop up during the quarter. How does that compare with your training and/or on going education? I'm sorry you mis-interpreted my statements as boasting on Indiana, I was simply replying to your fact-less comment that the Officers had little training. You obviously have an axe to grind with law enforcement and have cloaked it in a pseudo training issue. I'm sure the thread members have grown tired of this pis**** match, so I will bid you good day.:cool:

LD
 
I heard Justin Moon was going to show up here with an antithetical and inspirational flip concerning the unholy relationship between the gun manufacturers and the big city mafioso police departments. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

The real question that needs to be answered is, "who is going to claim the body of the dead ignorant slut."

jane.jpg
 
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