Keep your mouth shut...Or not?

Hello Everyone. My question posed is how to handle police reports when no shots were taken? I'll elaborate a bit more so that I'm clear.

I know the general rule is keep your mouth shut if your involved in a self defense shooting. What if there was no shooting, and you had to present the firearm? Generally I have been told to call the police and report first, as the person who reports first generally is the good guy.

What are your thoughts?

 

I think it depends tremendously on what local laws are regarding "display" or "brandishing" or "threatening deadly force." And how the incident ends.

Do you have a more detailed scenario in mind?

 

The guy who reports it first gets to tell his story first.
You might find yourself being investigated after the real BG goes to the police and says, "This guy accosted me with a gun -- he threatened to kill me. I wasn't doing anything and he pointed a gun at me. I think maybe he wanted to rob me -- but I was too scared to recall exactly what. All I recall is looking into a barrel that looked like a cannon."
Now, since that's what the police are investigating, it won't look good you didn't even file a report. After all, good guys file reports, and we all know criminals would NEVER report to the polices ... right?
Think about it.
Report it -- for your own protection.

 

JMO, but if I draw my weapon, I'm calling the cops. Both as a papertrail if he/she comes back and escelates, and in case he/she or a third party saw and is calling. If something happened bad enough that I drew my weapon I want an official record.

FWIW I have drawn, not shot, and called the cops twice. The first was a random guy I never saw before, LEO's took a report and moved on. Never heard anything else.

Second was the ex B/F of one of my female coworkers who was waiting in the parking lot for her at 0400. The LEO's took a report, and a sworn statement that was used as part of a domestic assault case on him.

In neither case did TPD give me the slightest issue on the weapon. In the second one the LEO BS'd 1911's with me for a while.

 

Where I live, I would report it to the police, but I live in a gun friendly area that would no have a problem with someone using a firearm for SD.

 

Tommygunn hit the nail right on the head.You be the guy who reports the incident,not the dirt bag.

 

Good thread. I was actually curious about this myself.

I had the g/f ex come over one night and threaten me numerous times on my property while I was out shoveling snow at 11pm one night. Ended up calling the cops after he left just to make sure there was a record of it happening. That incident is the reason I now keep one of my 9mm handguns loaded in the house. I always wondered how to approach the situation if I ever had to brandish the gun... or fire...

 

I think I would have been tempted to use the snow shovel on him, then ask him if he'd like to make any more threats.

 

I would have held the gun on him and then made him shovel the rest of the snow!

 

a) The guy who accosted you, or attempted a break in most likely has a warrant out for his arrest... not likely to go to the police and file a complaint.

b) Your house was probably not their first stop, and the cops may be looking for him. And these guys are probably going to make another stop after you chase him off.

c) all you have to say to the 911 chick/dude is that there was an attempted break in or whetever, and theat he ran off, but you would like to give a description. You don't have to say anything you don't want to say.

d) It's not deadly force if you don't pull the trigger, and pointing a gun at someone is not a crime (it's justified) if you are defending your person or home from an unlawful attack or an imminent unlawful attack.

e) pointing a gun at someone is part of the continuum of force. For example someone is stealing the car out of your driveway. You are within your rights to point a gun at someone in an attempt to get them to stop stealing your car. If he runs off fine. You did your job. BUT you can NOT pull the trigger unless you reasonably believe you are in danger of the imminent use of unlawful force on your person and you are in danger of "severe bodily injury" or a "forcible felony" upon your person or a "another person" or an attack is made to gain entry to your "dwelling".

f) it is lawful to use reasonable force to affect an arrest (you are allowed to hold someone at gun point until the police arrive). But you can NOT pull the trigger (use deadly force) unless he then attacks you and you believe deady force is required to prevent imminent use of unlawful force that you reasonably believe would cause "serious bodily injury" or to prevent a "forcible felony."

There are other methods of "reasonable force", but the OP asked specifically about pointing a gun.

 

According to Massod, ye who reports the 'crime' first is usually considered the victim by police.

 

Another thing...

Stay out of stupid juvenile situations.

Don't drive aggressively. Do not respond to road ragers either. Just drive away.

Some guy asks you to step outside a bar so he can whup your butt for noticing his girlfriend's implants in combination with her dental floss bikini? What do you do? Do you oblige him, and then scare him with your boomstick? Or do you let the club's management handle the problem?

Some guy is in your driveway yelling at you. Go inside. Call the police. Let them deal with the fellow.

Be an adult, ferchrissake. If you have a permit, odds are you're over 21. It's time to behave like you are.

When you get a permit, and you strap on a boomstick, you need to take your aggression, and put it in a nice locked box in your closet.

 

Exactly. You don't even need to mention the display of a firearm. Minimum information

I understand what you're trying to say, but anybody in my "driveway" is already trespassing by at least 1/8 of a mile. A deputy would take 45 minutes to get here if they even bothered to respond.

 

kludge (Today 12:03 PM) #10 opines:

Careful, here. Pointing a gun at someone is most certainly the threat of deadly force, and needs to be justified, as you say. Be sure of what justifies a threat of deadly force in your state. I can say with some certainly that even pointing an unloaded gun can be aggravated assault in some states if not justified by self-defense.

Maybe. Stealing your car is a property crime and usually involves no threat to your person. In some states (Georgia is one) shooting someone driving away after stealing your car ... and probably even while stealing it ... would not be justified.

Laws vary from state to state and I surely don't know them all, but a safe general rule is that if neither you yourself nor any other person is about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm, you can't shoot (or even threaten to shoot) to stop whatever it is that's happening. If loopholes to this exist, courts seem to frown upon them, at least in cases I've read.

IANAL, but if someone knows better than the above, please cite relevant statutes and cases. I can bring some from Georgia to support the above if anyone likes.

regards,

GR

 

Exactly! In Indiana pointing a loaded gun at a person (for any reason) is a Class D felony and a Class A misdemeanor if unloaded.

It is ONLY justified in situations when it would be "reasonable" under the "justified use of force" laws, and as you said, know YOUR state laws.

+1 again. Know YOUR state laws. Here's mine.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).

IC 35-41-3-3
Use of force relating to arrest or escape
Sec. 3. (a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:
(1) a felony has been committed; and
(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.
However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.

 

In WA state, if you're carrying concealed and even display the holstered gun it's considered "reckless endangerment", in Montana it seems to depend on the county prosecutor, but "brandishing" a weapon is generally not legal. If a person is attempting to assault another it would seem that brandishing a firearm, not shooting them, and immediately reporting the incident to police to cover your tail would definitely be the thing to do. People who wander around threatening to kick someone's tail, may be known to LE as other than pleasant folks.

 

I would avoid brandishing a firearm unless I'm prepared to shoot. That means I already feel that my life is in danger and the choice to shoot or not is mine.

Reporting would depend on the situation. I won't make that decision until it happens.

 

“There are two kinds of people in the world, those with loaded guns, and those who shovel. You shovel.”

 

i found myself in one of these situations not too long ago: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4674324&postcount=1

most everyone here kind of scolded me, and rightly so, for not calling the police immediately thereafter. if the police are notified, make sure you're the one doing it, to avoid accusations of brandishing and other gun related crimes.

 

If you are suspected of something by the police, i.e. they come to you unexpectedly asking questions you want to exercise your right to remain silent.

If, OTOH, you have to use a firearm in self defense, I'd say get your story on paper first. Don't do anything illegal, and don't make it sound like you did. But like other people said, the first story is often the one that's believed.

Even if you're a Border Patrol agent and the guy you shot at was a known drug smuggler, if you get my drift.

 

Kludge, plus one to you. Know your state laws. We are allowed to threaten lethal force to prevent certain crimes in AZ (auto theft being one of them). Like you stated, lethal force is reserved to prevent imminent danger to you or another.

I have seen people held at gun point for illegally dumping trash in a golf course dumpster. Problem was, the person dumping trash was an employee and had permission to dump trash, and the person holding him at gunpoint was a drunk neighbor. As always, use sound judgment.

A fight happened recently at a birthday party. Three males came to the party and attacked the birthday boy (something to do with an ex) A party goer went to his truck and retrieved his pistol. He tried to break the fight up, but the three in turn tried to attack him. He drew his pistol, and ordered them to the ground to wait for police (who had already been called and were on the way) The problem was, I asked what he would have done if they had not complied. He said he had not thought that far, and figured all people would comply. I am aware these decisions are usually split second, but it is wise to have a contingency plan.

 

This is the key...sound judgment, the universally beneficial component. It makes all situations better. It makes no situations worse.

 

Pull yor gun and you will get it taken from you,for how long the court will decide.

Rule #1 only pull your gun if your going to use it.

 

I believe Rule #1 is don't present your gun unless you are willing to use it. Once presented the situation could change to where using it would be the incorrect action.

 

That's a really tough pill to swallow, but very necessary one.
Pride can be a tough opponent and one's worst liability.

You gotta practice that "Turn the other cheek" teaching, and man that is TOUGH.
You can no longer be the one to slap 'em in the back of the head when you think an attitude adjustment is warranted.