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Kent State - 35 years ago today...

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Preacherman, May 4, 2005.

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  1. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    For those old enough to remember, 35 years ago today, National Guardsmen opened fire on demonstrators at Kent State University in Ohio.

    See http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/index.html for a series of articles on the events.

    I don't feel much sympathy for the longhairs, but I do feel sympathy for the USA, so deeply divided back then - and things don't seem to have improved much, do they?
     
  2. CZ-100

    CZ-100 Member

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    Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
    We're finally on our own.
    This summer I hear the drummin'.
    Four dead in Ohio.
     
  3. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/LEWIHEN.htm

    "The closest student was Jeffrey Miller, who was shot in the mouth while standing in an access road leading into the Prentice Hall parking lot, a distance of approximately 270 feet from the Guard."

    Read that again...the closest student killed was 270 feet away.

    "The Guard then began retracing their steps from the practice football field back up Blanket Hill. As they arrived at the top of the hill, twenty-eight of the more than seventy Guardsmen turned suddenly and fired their rifles and pistols. Many guardsmen fired into the air or the ground. However, a small portion fired directly into the crowd. Altogether between 61 and 67 shots were fired in a 13 second period.

    HOW MANY DEATHS AND INJURIES OCCURRED?

    Four Kent State students died as a result of the firing by the Guard. The closest student was Jeffrey Miller, who was shot in the mouth while standing in an access road leading into the Prentice Hall parking lot, a distance of approximately 270 feet from the Guard. Allison Krause was in the Prentice Hall parking lot; she was 330 feet from the Guardsmen and was shot in the left side of her body. William Schroeder was 390 feet from the Guard in the Prentice Hall parking lot when he was shot in the left side of his back. Sandra Scheuer was also about 390 feet from the Guard in the Prentice Hall parking lot when a bullet pierced the left front side of her neck."


    The four students who were unarmed and murdered were:

    Allison Krause
    Age: 19
    Date of Birth: April 23, 1951
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Freshman, Honors College
    Chest wound

    Jeffrey Glen Miller
    Age: 20
    Date of Birth: March 28, 1950
    Plainview, Long Island (NY)
    Sophomore, Psychology
    Head wound

    Sandra Lee Scheuer
    Age: 20
    Date of Birth: August 11, 1949
    Youngstown, OH
    Junior, Speech & Hearing Therapy
    Neck wound

    William Knox Schroeder
    Age: 19
    Date of Birth: July 20, 1950
    Lorain, OH
    Sophomore, Psychology
    Chest wound
    ________________________

    Nine others were wounded.

    ________________________

    The State of Ohio settled with a payment of $675,000 to the wounded students and the parents of the students who had been killed...in 1979...NINE YEARS AFTER THE KILLINGS.

    _______________________
     
  4. sm

    sm member

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    In '70 I was a Soph in HS.
    I remember , oh how I remember.
     
  5. Tory

    Tory member

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    On 5/4/70 I was

    1 month from graduating high school.

    I've had ammo for every gun I own at all times since the '68 Chicago Police Riot. Kent confirmed the logic of that decision.
     
  6. Bemidjiblade

    Bemidjiblade Member

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    From the Kent State ER...

    I don't know how much I believe the reports on that one.

    My mom and her best friend were ER nurses in the area at the time. The overflow reached the hospital they were working at.

    So, someone who had inside scoop information on the wounded tells me that the cops identify several members as professional provocateurs from out of state. They tell me that the people were so filthy that the ER doctors were unable to determine their race until they were washed down. And I'm from that area. Kent/Akron/Cleveland is the only place I ever hear the other side. Bricks were torn down from the new building under construction and thrown at the national guardsmen. The lib media covered it exactly the way that they cover garbage in Israel today: Innocent bystanders trying to stone armed soldiers to death were shot in a tragic imballance of balistic force.

    My family was there. My sister was a Kent State student herself. We're sorry people died, but the general consensus in Akron, OH is that they died because they were lawless, rioting, idiots.
     
  7. confed sailor

    confed sailor Member

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    now im only 22 but if my memory serves me right, didnt the rioters burn down the ROTC department buliding? werent they completely out of control?

    they should count themselves lucky that most of the national guardsmen were kind enough to aim high.

    though i prefer Col Joshua Chamberlain's solution "give them the cold steel", a little light prodding from a bayonet would have cooled their jets, if not m80 ball works wonders in attitude adjustment.
     
  8. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    That is what I was taught in HS history, that the rioters were burning at least the ROTC center, and destroying other things.

    Now death they probably didn't deserve, but I am not going to say that they were blameless in this.

    Just out of curiosity, how many riots has Kent State had since?
     
  9. Tory

    Tory member

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    Reality check

    "The lib media covered it exactly the way that they cover garbage in Israel today: Innocent bystanders trying to stone armed soldiers to death were shot in a tragic imballance [sic] of balistic [sic] force."

    Nonsense. Go back and:

    1. READ the distances;

    2. Look at the photos CONFIRMING the locations of those killed and wounded;

    3. Note that there was NO-one, agent provocateurs or otherwise, anywhere NEAR the guardsmen when they opened fire;

    4. The ROTC building in question had been torched nearly 24 hours BEFORE the shootings; and

    5. Grasp the concept that people in the area had to rationalize the killing by blaming the victims so as not to deal with correctly allocating blame. :scrutiny:
     
  10. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    OK, how about this. What level of force is appropriate to stop a riot? If the building had been burnt 24 hours before the shooting, that means they put up with it for at least a day. Some people are simply going to riot until there is nothing left to destroy. That cannot happen. Some people are going to resist violently you trying to stop them.

    How many people would be complaining if an officer shot a guy while trying to kill someone? Probably not many. At least to me, torching a building is a signal that you are willing to kill someone, even if unintentionally. What if the next building was a dorm?


    Probably the big problem I see here is the guards not targeting the ringleaders, and firing blindly.

    EDIT: I went back and read. Not only did they set fire, they vandalized the fire fighter's equipment, keeping them from putting out the fire.

    Furthermore, while the nearest person to die may have been nearly 100 yards, the closest hit was only 20. Plenty close enough to do damage with rocks, that seemingly they were throwing.

    Another EDIT: Please don't take this to mean that I advocate shooting all protestors. It did seem that in this case, it would probably have not been resolved peacefully in any way. You can't force someone to do something without someone getting hurt. Too bad in this case, it seems that others died for some idiot's mistake.
     
  11. confed sailor

    confed sailor Member

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    bingo jef, you nailed it square
     
  12. MikeIsaj

    MikeIsaj Member

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    In the aftermath several of the guardsman were charged. I am not sure if they were civilly charged or court martialed. What I remember is that they were defended with a precedent that established that enough steady harrassing pressure could push a reasonable man too far and be a defense for violent reaction. The precedent was set in the case against the British soldiers after the Boston Massacre. Their lawyer was John Adams.

    What should also be remembered is that after the Kent State incident, riots on campuses across the country came to a screeching halt, and protests became much more civil. Some of the loud mouth, in your face protestors today should take note.
     
  13. Atticus

    Atticus Member

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    I have to disagree with that statement PM. Imagine the LA riots nationwide.
    That was the way it was then. It's a cakewalk now compared to then. It's hard to put those times in perspective now.
    I was a boy then, and lived in a small college town of 40,000 people. I remember tear gas in the air- heavily armed guardsmen/police on the street- total curfews after dark- the largest buildings in town being burned to the ground. There wasn't a window left unbroken downtown. My father's business was firebombed three times. He and his employees slept there for weeks armed to the teeth. They were given the OK by local authorities to shoot. My best friend's father was ambushed and shot at a stoplight, simply becuse he was driving a marked city vehicle.
    My interest in guns, and the importance of self defense, was forged by fire at that time.

    Do a google on "1968 riots"- interesting reading.
     
  14. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

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    I was a freshman in high school in Mid state Ohio way back then and I thought what idiots they were for rioting.
     
  15. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I was a college kid at the time. I'd bought my first gun a few months earlier. I was glad I had it.
     
  16. dustind

    dustind Member

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    What do you mean by that? Do you mean you do not mind innocent people being murdered due to their political beliefs?
     
  17. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    Do you consider throwing bricks at soldiers an innocent act, or a political belief?
     
  18. dustind

    dustind Member

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    I was refering to the ones far away. I doubt the ones killed, between 270 and 390 feet away and shot in the back or sides.
     
  19. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    You mean, people who were participating in a violent riot where armed soldiers were being pelted with bricks, buildings were being burned down, and other assorted anarchy was taking place, got hurt?

    Sorry, they're not innocents, they placed themselves in an extremely dangerous situation, and suffered the consequences of their actions.
     
  20. DMF

    DMF Member

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    I would suggest reading this book: Kent State by James Michener

    It's one of the most objective looks at the events ever written. Michener did the thorough research he's known for, and then presented it in his typically outstanding writing style.
     
  21. dustind

    dustind Member

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    If I was wrong I apologise, but the sources that I have seen (including my public education) said some of the kids that where killed where just students walking to class.

    I retract my previous statements due to bad information, sorry.
     
  22. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    [​IMG]

    Here's a pic of...oops, wrong repressive regime. ;)
     
  23. Tory

    Tory member

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    The insolence of ignorance:

    "You mean, people who were participating in a violent riot where armed soldiers were being pelted with bricks, buildings were being burned down, and other assorted anarchy was taking place, got hurt?"

    No, the NON-PARTICIPANTS who were HUNDREDS of feet away, minding their own business and bothering no-body. In other words, the four people who were shot and killed.

    Once again, since you've obviously missed - or chosen to ignore - that fact, not ONE of the dead was involved in a riot. Grasp the concept.

    "Sorry, they're not innocents, they placed themselves in an extremely dangerous situation, and suffered the consequences of their actions."

    Sorry, your obvious ignorance of the facts precludes your being taken seriously by those of us who are familiar with the shooting. :scrutiny:
     
  24. Atticus

    Atticus Member

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    Wrong peacefull protestor as well.
    Many of the protest situations were more like the Iraqi "insurgency" than the Chinese protest.

    Kent state was a tragedy, but the result was not a suprise, and many people felt that "it is about time they do something". Twas probably because those folks got impatient with the "kids" burning their property, randomly sniping at them with rocks, bottles, or guns, turning and burning cars, threatening to dump lbs of LSD into the city water supplies, etc.

    Those were strange days. Nobody was right and everybody was wrong (I think that was a line in a song).
    The phrases 'Burn Baby Burn" and "Death to Pigs" and such, were being carried out with great enthusiam.
     
  25. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "more like the Iraqi "insurgency""

    I don't remember any roadside bombs, the primary method of the Iraqi anarchists. I don't remember students with guns shooting at the police. I remember some buildings getting occupied and a few being burned, but I don't believe the fires caused any deaths.

    An amusing anecdote: I remember the State Police ending the multi-day occupation of the math building at Va Tech. They ripped the back door off the building and herded the students into a tractor-trailer borrowed/rented from a moving company (Mayflower IIRC). Trouble was, they'd backed the trailer up to the building and police line didn't extend out as far as the side door on the trailer. As fast as they herded the first half of the students in... they ran through and jumped out the side door that had been opened by supporters.

    Let's not forget the 2 killed at Jackson State in May, 1970 and the numerous students wounded. The state police fired 461 rounds and didn't call for ambulances until they'd gathered up the empties.

    "But the ambulances were not called until after the officers picked up their shell casings, a U. S. Senate probe conducted by Senators Walter Mondale and Birch Bayh later revealed."

    www.may41970.com/Jackson State/jackson_state_may_1970.htm

    "On June 13, 1970, then President Richard Nixon, established the president's Commission on Campus Unrest. The commission held its first meeting June 25, 1970. Subsequently, it conducted thirteen days of public hearings in Jackson, Mississippi; Kent State, Ohio; Washington, DC; and Los Angeles, California. At the Jackson hearings, the administration, faculty, staff and students testified. There were no convictions and no arrests."



    And then there were the really bad riots during the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in August 1968.

    John
     
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