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Kids (legal!) solo hunting leads to woman shot in the head!

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by Kindrox, Jul 21, 2009.

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  1. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

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    I didn't see this posted anywhere. Frankly I am shocked that in some states you can give a gun and legally send a 10 year old "hunting" on public land. I would not stay at a range that an unattended 14 year old was shooting guns, and it this is beyond outrageous.

    If you are on your own property (and can keep your kid’s bullets on your property) I don’t have a problem generally, but in this case I hope the parents are sued into the ground.

     
  2. ByAnyMeans

    ByAnyMeans Member

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    I can understand an initial reaction of shock especially when you read how a "six year old could be out there hunting bear" but I didn't see where they proved that what he did was because of his age. There are differing opinions on the safety risk of youngsters hunting especially in recent years. Adults are involved in hunting accidents as well. It seems that the lack of a law allowing hunting so close to hiking trails may be the real issue.
     
  3. Enginetech88

    Enginetech88 Member

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    :what: I had no idea there were places where you could hunt at that early of an age by yourself. No clue. Its a very sad situation. A kid of any should be able to go shooting. Rifles or handguns. Its a parents choice based on their childs maturity. Noone knows their child better or atleast noone should than the parents. But as far as hunting. I think its a little extreme to do all that. There is a big difference between a controlled situation at a range and the vast amount of variables in the woods. Many many adults make mistakes like this too while hunting based on the variables, so age is not the only factor. But still very suprising. Josh
     
  4. dirt_j00

    dirt_j00 Member

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    Please contain your shock and outrage. I know 10-year-olds who have better gun handling etiquette than some 50-year-olds.

    This was a tragic accident. No need to take hunting or youth-involvement in shooting sports to task for it.

    And what is up with the quotes around "hunting"? You don't think that's what the young man was doing?

    Another thing to note: when I hike, I always take into consideration if it is in a hunting area or during hunting season. Bear season had opened the day before in this case, according to this article.
     
  5. 35Rem

    35Rem Member

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    Hmmm, depends on the kid. I started hunting at 5, was going solo at about 7 or 8 and solo with a jeep at 11.
     
  6. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

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    I don't know what kids you have been around, but I have yet to meet a six year old (or a 14 year old) I want out and about, alone, with a gun "hunting". Do we really need to spend a few million bucks on a "study" to prove it is a bad idea???

    Adults get into auto accidents. Is that a valid argument for allowing 14 year olds to drive unsupervised? "But adults get into accidents too, so see it's really all the same!"

    He is a unsupervised kid out alone with a gun. I don't know what the heck he was doing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  7. auschip

    auschip Member

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    I have no problem with it if the parents think the kid can handle the situation. Besides, I have heard too many stories about kids helping out when times were lean. I think we have too many laws as it is, I don't see adding more as being useful.

    Of course, I drove unsupervised at 14 also ...
     
  8. dirt_j00

    dirt_j00 Member

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    You need to get out more.

    Again: what is up with the quotes around "hunting"?
     
  9. JoeMal

    JoeMal Member

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    Quote the truth

    Kids that young should NOT be allowed to hunt on their own, regardless of supposed maturity or discipline...I just think it's a bad idea
     
  10. Quilbilly

    Quilbilly Member

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    This was a horrible accident. No need to blame the government for permitting a teenager to hunt by himself, the last thing we need is more gun laws. It was the parents fault and I think they should be "sued into the ground". Rule 4 is just as important as the other 3.
     
  11. Enginetech88

    Enginetech88 Member

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    Within a few posts you guys made me finish my thoughts. Some kids may be ready to go hunting at 7 or 8. And maybe a lot safer than some old timers. So maybe there shouldnt be an age at all. Mabe there should be a mandatory hunting class with skills testing. Mayeb there is. Its no longer shocking the more I think about it. Thanks! This is why we are all here. To expand our horizons. Josh


    Just some food for thought......... Are you more mature at age 18 than you are at age 17 and 364 days? And are there 15 year olds that are more mature or better disiplined than some 19 year olds??
     
  12. Dravur

    Dravur Member

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    I dunno, Hunting, maybe? Maybe he was doing Russian ballet..... Perhaps he was auditioning for a role on Two and a Half Men. Maybe he was pole vaulting....

    But my best guess is.... he was HUNTING.

    I hunted unsupervised when I was that age. and guess what? No problems.

    This was a tragic accident and whether the guy was 14 or 52, it matters not.
     
  13. Nickotym

    Nickotym Member

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    The kid made mistakes: Never shoot until you are 100% sure of your target and backstop. If it is foggy this becomes even more important. The hiker made mistakes too: Don't go hiking in known hunting areas during open seasons without wearing blaze orange.

    After this comment I would look into the options of finding a better attorney and getting a mistrial for poor representation. Unless taken greatly out of context, this statement would not make me feel good about my lawyer.


    Mod note: That more what you had in mind?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2009
  14. ByAnyMeans

    ByAnyMeans Member

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    "I don't know what kids you have been around, but I have yet to meet a six year old (or a 14 year old) I want out and about, alone, with a gun "hunting". Do we really need to spend a few million bucks on a "study" to prove it is a bad idea???"

    I don't think you need to conduct a study, just read the article posted. As I said there are conflicting reports of the difference in safety between young hunters below adult age and adults as the below statement from the article shows.


    "Lawhern, who plans to focus on recruiting more young hunters in his role as IHEA president, sees no need for the government to set minimum hunting ages, whether kids are alone or supervised. “I think the important thing to remember is it’s the parent’s responsibility until they’re 18,” he said. In states with no minimum ages, “There’s no significant reports of there being a problem with young people hunting. Their incident rates are no different than anywhere else in the country.”
     
  15. Quilbilly

    Quilbilly Member

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    My friends son who is 12 just got his second gun. He has a .22 rifle and a 20G now. We have taken him out on several occasions and practiced gun safety more than target practice. Last duck season my buddy made a plywood cutout of a gun with a metal pipe for a barrel and stuck a little laser on it so we would know where he was pointing the thing. He sat out in the cold with us and his fake gun so he could prove himself for the next season. If he can pass the hunter safety course here in Washington, he is welcome to come hunting next season. That 12 year old is more safe with a firearm than my wife, who is 24, or my Dad, who is 50 (they do not own or shoot guns).
     
  16. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    It wasn't uncommon when we were younger that we would be left in a deer stand while fathers/uncles hiked off to other deer stands. I think the youngest I was left on my own was about 9.

    You knew at some point that a family member would be walking through the woods to come get you from the stand, so you made damn sure to identify your target before shooting.

    This was a tragic accident, but I see no problem with young kids hunting on their own.
     
  17. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

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    But they are not in jail, now are they?

    If we go with what he DID, she was shooting a person. I don't know if that qualifies as hunting. Here is what I think was going. He was boored, so picked up a gun and went walking around on public land. He saw something moving and thought it he would be real kwel if went to school the next day with a tale about shooting a bear.

    I say "hunting" because I did the same thing. Except for the minor details of being on my parents property, and not shooting anything that moves.

    I suppose there is an alternative here. Let the boy pay the "adult" price for his mistake. Which would be more than 30 days in jail. Right now he is on the "kids eat free menu". And perhapes, soon back out on public land with a rifle?

    Kids are called kids for a reason. Lack of experiance and judgment is a big part of that. Like this case. Just because one kid does something and everything is ok does not mean it is a good idea, or safe. Who here would really share a gun range with an unsupervised 10 year old? I bet many more people would say it is safe for their (always it seems) "above average" 10 year old to (after driving himself?) be shooting unsupervised at the range than would share a range with an unsupervised 10 year old.

    Why is this?


    And for those who think children out hunting unsupervised is fine, would you really let them if you knew your kid's screw up would result in YOUR being imprisoned for 25 years? Or is it just ok if someone else dies but you and yours stay out of jail?
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  18. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Only if they break the law.

    Minimum age for certification in the required Hunter Education Training Course is 12. Anyone aged 12 to 16 who has passed the course must be accompanied by a person aged 17 or older who has also completed the course, or was born on or before Sept. 2, 1971. Any person born on or before Sept. 2, 1971 or over the age of 17 and has completed the course may hunt alone.
     
  19. dirt_j00

    dirt_j00 Member

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    We could all conjecture about this young man's thought process, and we could all be wrong.

    Instead, lets look at the facts:

    • He was legally hunting on public land.
    • The victim was legally hiking on public land.
    • Bear season opened the day before.
    • He misidentified his target, and it cost someone their life.
    Let's set the emotional/sensational aside for a minute, and see that this was an accident. One that hunters of all ages have made. Throw public land into the mix and things can get even more dangerous: Hunting within proximity of hikers. Hiking within proximity of hunters. Hunting within proximity of other hunters. All these things should be considered before using public land.

    It seems this could be more a lesson on safety practices while using public land than an attack on youth-shooting sports.

    And where did a 10-year-old come into this? This guy was 14. Quit sensationalizing this tragedy.

    Also, comparing gun ranges to hunting =/=.
     
  20. Dazen

    Dazen Member

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    I am with you on that one 35REM with one exception... I was driving a 43 Willy's jeep at 9.
     
  21. longbeard48

    longbeard48 Member

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    This young man will have to live with what he did for the rest of his life. There is no telling how many ways it will change his life's outcome. He, as well as the victim's family, needs all our prayers.
     
  22. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Personaly I have found a larger number of responsibly raised boys make more responsible choices before puberty than for the first few years after.
    Meaning a well raised boy is often more responsible after being taught safety when they are 8-11 than teenagers from 13-16. Around puberty is when you ususaly start to see the "know it all" syndrome where they don't listen quite as well to instructions, including those on safety.
    A 10-12 year old out hunting with his dad who has been taught how to safely handle firearms is far safer than the kid learning and doing the same thing for the first time 2 years later.
    They ususaly don't become as responsible as they were just before puberty until well after 16 years old.


    There is a lower level gap usualy somewhere between 6-10 when responsibly raised children begin to understand the severity of consequences for different actions. Before that time I certainly wouldn't want someone else's child with a gun.
    However the definition of hunting in many states is pursuing, stalking or otherwise interacting with game even if you are not shooting them.
    In CA for example merely following animals is defined under statute as hunting, and so the boy even just going along with his father would need to have a hunting permit even if they never touch the firearm. If they couldn't hunt then they couldn't even legaly go.


    One of the reasons I miss fireworks being widely used. Responsible kids that played with m-80s tended to stay in one piece while learning to be safe with potentialy dangerous recreation. The others lost thier trigger fingers before they could buy a gun. :neener:
    But in all seriousness the trend of protecting children even into thier teens so much that they learn no responsibility is often even more dangerous. It allows many to get near legal adulthood without ever learning to use discretion with dangerous objects and activities. Then they begin to learn that discretion beyond the age of oversight, without parental correction, and with adult items from guns to vehicles etc Having merely prolonged irresponsibility in many until later years of thier life when the toys are bigger and the consequences usualy worse.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  23. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    It was not all that long ago that kids sometimes brought firearms to school so they could hunt for their family's supper on the way home.

    My guess is the "hiker advocates" are more interested in banning hunting than in any perceived safety problem.

    Its not like adult hunters have never shot the wrong thing.
     
  24. RoostRider

    RoostRider Member

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    This is about hunter awareness, not age.

    All of the 'kids' I have hunted with are safer than the majority of adults I have hunted with. But I'm not silly enough to say that only kids should be allowed to hunt.... I actually think more kids should have the experience, and that it teaches a LOT about life that isn't easily forgotten....

    I hunted alone well below 14. My son is 13 and will hunt with me this fall (but not me overseeing his every move)... I would be OK with him hunting alone at this point, if not for the fact he needs to learn 'hunting' now that he has safety down..... If he had shown the maturity level of some 10 year olds I know, I would have been comfortable at that age...

    It surprises me how people will just jump on a bandwagon because of a few isolated incidents instead of looking at the real statistics and making a logical conclusion.

    How many adults have accidentally shot other people? (aside from the former VP).... the next 'logical' step is to ban hunting altogether.... right?.... I think I've heard this type of rhetoric before....

    I refuse to compare driving privileges with hunting rights (here in MN hunting rights are constitutionally protected).... because, frankly, driving is WAY more dangerous for a kid.... and I try not to compare apples to oranges because the taste gets bitter....
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2009
  25. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    Youth Training

    When I was in my early teens we used to visit some family friends in Arizona.

    They had a son who had been through hunter safety and had his own rifle for use around the ranch. Kid had been hunting and shooting on his own since 11, and had been hunting/shooting with his dad since before that.

    I was not allowed to handle the rifle. I had not been through safety training. It wasn't the parents who told me "no." It was the kid with the training.

    Where I grew up kids hunted with their dads from as early as they could lug a long gun. And that was in Northern California.

    Age isn't the primary factor. Training is.

    This kid wasn't adequately trained.

    To argue that his age is the problem is to overlook all the "accidents" that befall older hunters. Yes, more experience will help avoid the "shoot at whatever moves" mistake.

    Oh, and hiking trails in hunting areas?

    There's a hiking trail near where I live that has a little extra signage warning hikers that they are in a "Cougar Area" with an explanation that cougars frequent that area (near a lake) and have frequently been seen there.

    It probably wouldn't hurt to add a little signage to a hiking trail-head announcing that it's hunting season and that hunters will be shooting in the area.

    I don't see this as a regulatory failure. We don't need another law to "fix it."

    I see this as a training and supervision failure.

    As the judge on this case, I would have required remedial hunter safety training for the boy and his parents, no matter what other judgment I handed down.

     
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