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Kimber Lifeact pepper spray. legal question.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by rocinante, Feb 18, 2008.

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  1. rocinante

    rocinante Member

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    I bought a Kimber Lifeact at a gunshow. It is a handheld devise that "fires two blasts of ultra-hot pepper spray up to 13 feet in less than a second!"

    I bought it for my wife since she is scared of guns. She is delighted and assures me she would have no qualms about using it.

    Legal question. If she did feel the need to use it then it would be a threatening situation she felt she was in immediate danger. She is not a super flighty chick. My advise to her is to squirt someone, get the hell out of there, and call the police. Is that good advise? Ideally she isn't leaving a scene of a crime because she acted before an assault happened. My other thought is as screwed up as our laws are should she just leave and keep the police out of it? I think this would immoral because it would leave a potential predator free but would she be open to any form of persecution or civil action for causing someone pain and suffering?

    Second legal question. Generally are these defensive spray devices subject to any restrictions on where you can carry? Surely they aren't as restricted as handguns.

    Finally question does anybody trust this kimber thing? I would like to think it is a little bit better than nothing.
     
  2. lawson4

    lawson4 Member

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    If she sprays someone with pepper spray, she should be the first one to call the police. Otherwise, the other person can claim he was assaulted by a "crazy chick for no reason at all."
    The first one to call is usually assumed to be the victim.

    lawson4
     
  3. IllHunter

    IllHunter Member

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    Kimber "Guardian Angel" ?

    I am not familiar with the Lifeact but have tried out the Guardian Angel which Kimber advertises effective to @13' with a two shot capacity. The insert from Kimber recommends taking a defensive stance with the off hand held out in the "stop" position, the angel esconsced in the strong hand, in pocket,purse or behind the back. They strongly suggest spraying well before the attacker comes within reach. Verbal warning and the device brought to bear resting on the off hand thumb to align the aimpoint. They further suggest if the attacker is alone, after firing the first shot and with the attacker on the ground, fire the second. IF multiple attackers, save the second blast for the next brave soul. The spry has adhesive qualities and considering how even water sprayed at 700fps will hurt, I read that no volunteer has remained standing after one shot. I bought one for my niece whose workmate was abducted and killed (the boyfriend did it) and who was unwilling/unable to carry a gun. She first expressed intrest in a shock device but as that requires closer proximity I felt she would be better off keeping her attacker at a distance. The test I saw was with inert spray and the dispersion of the spray in a 5mph wind was as advertised. We all felt the spray was max effective at 12-15' and that the firing force was sufficient to ovecome most normal outside wind. All that said, I had her apply for a FOID and will instruct when possible.
     
  4. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    So I have some concerns over this one.

    If it's the device pictured here this opens a real can of worms in my mind.

    This looks enough like a handgun that it could cause confusion, both to an LEO or to anyone else.

    Might be a good way to get shot.....

    [​IMG]
     
  5. rocinante

    rocinante Member

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    That would be my take lawson4. thank you.

    This is a link to the device

    http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php

    It is the same as the guardian angel our friend Illhunter discusses that looks more like a electric zapper than a handgun. Thanks for that feedback it is very reassuring. I took looked at the zappers and rejected them for the proximity reasoning too. You have to have a FOID to carry pepper spray in Illinois? Sad.

    I agree somewhat with your concerns on that contraption TexasRifleman. My wife would never drag something around like that anyway. She was totally delighted with what I got her and assured me she would have no qualms using it if needed.
     
  6. kd7nqb

    kd7nqb Member

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    some individual locals restrict OC spray you may need to check your local laws. I always prefered a can of fox labs to a device like this but if this is what your wife will carry then it looks just fine.

    I firmly agree that SHE needs to be the one to call 911 if she uses it.
     
  7. Threeband

    Threeband Member

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    I carry one in my back pocket. Since I live in Maryland, it's about the best I can do and stay on the (legal) High Road.

    No, I don't really trust it. There's a video somewhere demonstrating its use against a manniquin, and it seemed to shoot slightly to the right, i.e., it looks like you could easily miss your assailant entirely.

    Still, I feel safe against manniquins while carrying it.

    I've checked the local laws (online sources, anyway) and it's legal around here, even in the (shudder) City, where I rarely venture.

    If I ever have to use it, I will Run Like Hell, and yes, call the cops afterwards.


    Edited to add:

    Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWbyWgjgF54
    Real confidence builder, isn't it?

    I love that line, "Do not attempt to help your assailant. On the contrary..."

    Somebody's gotta point out the obvious to the blissninnies.
     
  8. Pa.Bill

    Pa.Bill Member

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    rocinante-- I just read about the guardian in one of the gun mags. Had the same thought as you ---for the wife.

    If I remember correctly the price was $38.00 + S&H......Am I close??

    ~THANKS~
     
  9. rocinante

    rocinante Member

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    Given the alternatives of which a gun is not one it is better than nothing. Shock devises require direct contact. Tasers give a range but are very expensive and depending on clothing may not be effective. Most sprays require the person to be pretty close and you have greater danger of it coming back on you. If she gets a hit anywhere this stuff will be noticed at least.

    Don't laugh at the don't assist part of the instruction. I can easily see my wife zapping the bastard and then feeling guilty and try to help. Me personally would probably be tempted to get a boot beating on him just for good measure.


    I paid 40 even for it at a gun show.
     
  10. chris in va

    chris in va Member

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    I see where you're coming from and it certainly is in the shape of a gun, however...

    Does that mean we shouldn't carry firearms because we're afraid we'll get shot?
     
  11. LAK

    LAK Member

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    If you are using it against an attacker in the course of an assault, who cares what it looks like? By the time police arrive you should have it lying on the hood of your car or on the seat (for example) and be standing away from it awaiting their arrival to file a complaint against your assailant.

    I have the Lifeact Guardian Angel, and my only criticism of it is it's lack of accurate directional "feel" or point. The "pistol" version not only shoots out faster and is effective to a greater distance, it's "pistol" configuration should make accurate delivery much easier and certain.

    They both have a "minimum safe distance" due to the possibility of eye injury. So consider them "deadly force" inside those distances - in other words use them at those shorter distances to face only when you would be justified in using deadly force with a firearm, knife etc.

    -----------------------------

    http://searchronpaul.com
    http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
    http://www.gtr5.com
    http://ssunitedstates.com
     
  12. NukemJim

    NukemJim Member

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    Uhmm... Allthough I can always be wrong, to the best of my knowlege you do NOT need a FOID in Illinois to buy or carry pepper spray of any kind unless fired from a firearm.

    NukemJim
     
  13. IllHunter

    IllHunter Member

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    No foid required

    I sold these retail ($39.99)and no foid is required for their purchase, btw, the niece is applying for a foid to up the ante, not for the guardian but for the Glock.;)
     
  14. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Of course not, but if you are gonna carry something that might invite the use of a gun against you, being able to shoot back might be nice......

    It's the misidentification that is really the worry, as much by an LEO as a badguy. You have this thing (the gun shaped one) in your hand walking to your car in a dark parking lot (which would be perfectly legal to do) and a cop sees you, things could go downhill in a hurry. He is going to assume it's a gun and if a person that's not particularly paying attention turns toward the LEO to see what the yelling is about...... well you can play out how that one ends in your mind.

    Extreme caution should be exercised when you are carrying something that looks like a gun, but isn't a gun.
     
  15. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    I don't know if the instructions say anything about it, but the goal of the off hand being up in the stop position is to shield your eyes (in the event of a wind gust) from the spray. When we trained with the stuff it wasn't really a full extension, locked elbow sort of "stop", the hand was closer to the face and behind the spray in a sort of guard position.

    As for the OP, if she uses it, getting away from the area and calling the cops sounds like good advice. The effect of the spray is temporary . . . she does not want to hang around the bad guy while calling the cops. She isn't "fleeing the scene" so much as "fleeing the attacker." If she is being victimized, the crime is still ongoing even after the spray is used.

    It hurts, in a horribly bad way, but I've fought through it and I've seen others fight through it. She does not want to be around if the bad guy decides to fight through the pain.
     
  16. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    I will leave my wallet at home then and refrain from making finger gestures as well, since pulling a wallet has caused the NYPD to open fire on innocents.
     
  17. Defensory

    Defensory Member

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    rocinante:

    After spraying the perp, she should promptly depart the area and go to a safe place, then call the police ASAP.
     
  18. dmazur

    dmazur Member

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    The Guardian Angel device has some kind of chemical propellant which is much faster than the typical aerosol and provides the advertised range.

    IMO, there is less danger of the spray blowing back at you.

    However, there are two and only two shots! If the user is accustomed to the larger spray cans, this may require a change in mind-set...
     
  19. DonP

    DonP Member

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    We got one for the youngest girl that's in Med School in "Gun Free" Chicago.

    (If it was up to me she'd have our Charter Arms Undercover. 38 special in her lab coat pocket. But if she got caught with it, she'd lose her medical license and would forfeit 10 years of training and preparation, thank you Mayor Daley.)

    She is about 95 pounds with a roll of quarters in her pocket and needs something besides her keys through her fingers. In Chicago that's about all she can do.

    I did a lot of research before I picked one up for her. This model, the flat compact model with two shots, does not have any propellant in it, it's a straight pump with a reducer in the nozzle to increase the velocity in the tube. That way it works no matter how long it sits in your pocket or glove box.

    It has a small plastic tab that serves as a "safety" to keep you from accidentally spraying your pocket with pepper spray. I just wish they had a "practice model" so you could judge your shots and the actual range and aim before she had to use it.

    The one I picked up, at a local gun store, was $34.95.
     
  20. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    You might want to call Kimber and suggest that. Just about every OC spray that comes in a can has training cans. They even use a nice minty smell for the training spray :D
     
  21. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    It really depends on several factors. It is smart advice, but depending on the state and the circumstances in a particular event it could be illegal advice.

    These devices are often advertised with a scared woman using them in "self defense" to avoid being victimized. However if they have not been victimized yet no crime has been commited. A creepy person following you (or you thinking they are, whether they are or just walking to thier car etc) for no reason is not a criminal offense. In some such situations a judgement call might be made that they are most likely bad news, excessively suspicious, and it might be in her best interest to use it before he gets into arms reach and she is at a greater disadvantage against his strength or she is unable to deploy her defensive measures.

    That is however illegal if there is no threat or threatening movements, and no weapon is present. So there is a grey area there. There is no set rules in that situation. There is no green light until a crime has been commited.
    Fleeing from the scene of a crime can also be a big offense. So if she sprays someone that commited no criminal act, and then proceeds to flee the area technicaly she could have commited multiple crimes.
    There is women (and men) that spray people for little or no provocation, or as punishment for percieved disrespect or insult. Good police must take a nuetral stance in investigating a situation and cannot presume guilt or innocence, nor should a prosecutor or jury. Now if the guy turns out to have a rap sheet for sexual offenses it would help tremendously.

    So it really is a judgement call, and it is up to the person. If they feel strongly that someone is trouble, and have taken measures to avoid them or change direction, or they just strongly feel that person is trouble and targeting them, then by all means make the judgement call. Simply pulling out a weapon and pointing it however is an assault, nevermind using it.

    There is a big grey area where force can be used against someone who has no appearant weapon, and has not yet commited or voiced intent to commit a crime. Anyone can follow anyone they want, and there is no law against it.
    If there was the paparazzi could not exist.

    A total stranger can follow anyone and film them, annoy them or even make rude statements. Until a law has been broken any use of force against them is an illegal assault/ battery, aggravated assault/assault with a deadly weapon etc.
     
  22. Kruzr

    Kruzr Member

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    HUH? No propellant? If you "research" a Kimber catalog, here is what they say:

    "Driven by pyrotechnic charges, the solution travels at 90 MPH with little chance of cross-contamination, and with enough energy to wrap around glasses or penetrate a face mask."

    No matter how small the nozzle is, you would have to have a very fast trigger finger to pump out solution at 90 MPH. :)

    The big one that looks like a Nerf Gun, shoots solution at 270 MPH.
     
  23. another okie

    another okie Member

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    I've seen a practice version of the flat one from Kimber. Whether it's available for sale to the public I don't know, but it was on the counter at a gun shop, so they must have bought it.
     
  24. Nikdfish

    Nikdfish Member

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    The training version of the Guardian Angel fires a dye marker stream instead of pepper & is a little cheaper than the "live" version (retails at 29.99 vs 41.99). The trainer is orange while the live one is black. You can order direct from the Kimber site or a dealer. I bought from a local shop when I got one for my daughter for use while mountain biking.

    The powder charge for projecting the spray is robust enough that the spray could probably cut/inject into flesh or seriously damage eyes if fired in close quarters (i.e. less than 1-2 feet).

    Nick
     
  25. Defensory

    Defensory Member

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    I recommend a cannister of Mace brand 10% OC pepper gel with UV dye.

    Easy to handle, very concealable and won't be mistaken for a gun by LEO's.
     
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