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Kinda thinking out loud here... .44 version of an NAA loader for Remmies?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Busyhands94, Dec 12, 2012.

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  1. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    So I have been milling over this idea for a while now. A fellow member mentioned I should make them, but I wasn't sure how to modify the design to work for a .44. I'm thinking about making and selling loaders for the Remington that work just like the little .22 loaders for the NAA companions do. Not even sure there would be a market for a pocket loading stand, what do you guys think?

    Obviously, we aren't dealing with little stainless steel cap guns that shoot lead round nosed bullets at 1200 FPS with smokeless powder. We are talking Remingtons, or cap and ball Colts, you know. Old stuff, great old stuff that we all hold so dearly. An aluminum tool wouldn't cut it, so I'm thinking maybe 1/2" mild steel. Blued, maybe leather handles and some file working. I have a bunch laying around, I just need to get a disk for my cutter so I can make a prototype.

    Here's a rough sketch I did with Gimp (good photo editing software by the way) and a white background.
    http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/busyhands94/loadingtool.jpg

    What has me puzzled is two things. How big should the overall length be? And would shooters actually buy something like this or would I end up making 12 of them and have a bunch of cool looking paperweights?

    The look should be 1800's. Those screws will need to be antiqued.

    Not trying to promote my own product here, just looking for some insight on a tool I'm developing. :)
     
  2. ofitg

    ofitg Member

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    Sounds like a good idea, I might be interested in getting one..... wouldn't have to "look 1800s", though, just simple, functional, and inexpensive.

    Suggestions? Interchangeable punches for .36 or .44 cylinders, perhaps? Or how about a pin on the opposite handle to anchor the cylinder in place?

    The handles should be long enough to provide good leverage, preferably similar to the 8" Remmie's built-in lever.
     
  3. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    Ofitg, interchangeable punches for .44 and .36 would be nice. Not sure I have the tools to make them interchangeable though, so that will require more contemplation. I'll go fetch my pipe and thinking cap! :D

    Would maybe 7" be a good length for a pocket loader? I can fit 7" in my front pocket. But there's gotta be some good leverage too. Of course there's gonna be that silly chimp that tries to seat his hand cast roundballs made from antimony with a hammer so it's gotta be durable too.

    Thanks Steve! :)
     
  4. BADUNAME30

    BADUNAME30 Member

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    This is a great idea Levi.
    As Ofitg has pointed out, an anchor would be required.

    For strength, i would consider making your handles laminated.
    Even laminations of aluminum would be plenty strong and make the tool light.

    Selling a few 'prototypes' would give you the funds to buy better materials and things like taps and dies needed to make different caliber plungers.
    You could also cut initial costs buy using Plasti-Dip on the prototype handles instead of leather.
     
  5. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Levi,

    As the guy that put that bug in your ear I would be happy to test and reveiw one of these set up to load a Pietta .44 NMA.

    I only use a hammer to start the somewhat hard single aught buck shot in the little .31 remington as their loading lever system is notoriously weak.

    It occurs to me that you have a .31 Remmie 1863 cylinder and that you might make your first proto type to load that.

    -kBob
     
  6. ofitg

    ofitg Member

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    +1 on kBob's comments - I would also be interested in a loader for the .31 Pocket Rem.
     
  7. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    That brings me to another idea I had... those NAA loaders are pretty close in size. But you don't want a 1/4" ring on each ball you seat because the caliber is different. Of course I could buy a handfull of NAA loaders, then make a new plunger for them. I have a lath and it wouldn't be hard at all to do with some brass or steel bar. Or perhaps make the handles from steel and blue them, and of course filework! :D If you are gonna build something you aught to make it look awesome.

    As for testing it, I have .32 caliber bullets and buckshot. The bullets for .32 S&W are actually the perfect size for the cylinder, at .312 according to Midway USA (that's where I originally bought them.)
     
  8. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I realize that you want to make a simple hand held design. But the simple table top type would have more application with both the Remington and Colts.
    I'm not sure but your design might damage the ratchet teeth of the Colt cylinders if it came into contact with them.

    http://www.buffaloarms.com/Loading_stand_for_black_powder_revolvers_pr-3814.aspx

    Plus the table top style can be partially made out of wood, and possibly have different size rams and inserts for different size cylinder holes.
    The longer the handle, the more leverage for larger calibers and conicals.
    Or one could be made specifically for the .31's and still be made to be small and handy. For example, the popular Colt 1849 Wells Fargo Pocket revolver doesn't come with a loading lever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  9. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    Steve, that's a good point there. It didn't occur to me that the ratchet teeth on Colt revolvers could get damaged! Those loading stands are exactly like the one I have. It is recessed for a Colt cylinder where the pin screws in.

    Of course, nobody has made a pocket loading press for cap and ball revolvers aside from the companions that I'm aware of. That's what's so appealing about this idea. Just a small, well made tool that will make life easier for my fellow shooters.

    I'm probably not going to get rich off this, but if I can help out some fellow shooters with something they need for their pocket pistols I'm happy with it.
     
  10. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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  11. faustopph

    faustopph Member

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    Busyhands have you been reading my mind? I have put some thought into this for a while now and am looking at the material side of things at this time.

    You keep on keeping on with your design and get the kinks worked out. Mine is a bit different and I can't understand why someone hasn't come up with something back in the day.My design or your design would easily fit in a saddle bag along with the other loading components.
     
  12. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    Alright, I'll give it a shot and see what I can come up with! :)

    And you are absolutely correct faustopph, the idea is the small loaders should be able to fit in a pocket, saddle bag, or possibles bag without taking up too much space. Cause you gotta have extra space for extra ammo! :D
     
  13. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    Well.... loading stands for either full guns or just the cylinders have been around for quite a while for the bigger bore .36's and .44's. That's not to suggest that a nice folding compact model won't turn the world on it's ear. But the basic concept isn't new by any means.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I've never tried it but couldn't a simple ball starter such as for a BP rifle be used to load a cylinder off the frame?
    And that also leads me to wonder, why not simply use the frame mounted ram that comes with the .44 Remington instead of making a specialized pocket loader for it?
    After all, the NAA mini-.22 pocket loader is made because the gun does not have any ram attached to the frame.
    But the .44 Remington revolvers do.
    I guess that a pocket press could be used to load a spare cylinder, but a Remington cylinder is easy enough to put on and to take off to use the gun's ram for loading if desired.
    IIRC, only some of the Colt .31's, Patersons, and some of the snubnose revolvers don't have a useful ram on the frame. And the snubnose .36 Colt comes with a brass "push ram" to load with. It has a wide flat end to be able to push against with the palm of your hand or against a stable object like a table top to load using less effort.
    But a .44 pocket press may require more effort than using the ram that comes already mounted on the .44 Remington's frame.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  15. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    Steve, the idea is you can use it for snubbies and shorties. Like the 63 Remington, fine example. The loading lever on that is too small and weak, so that's why a press would be perfect for that.

    Although some people do prefer loading presses for their revolvers. Perhaps some kind of folding base? It's gotta be small and fit right in the pocket. I have the perfect idea how these loaders could have a folding stand incorporated into the design and also a pin that will go through the hole in the middle of the cylinder. And when I say awesome, I mean it! :D

    It came to me in a dream last night. I forgot what I dreamed, then I was smokin' my pipe and fishing by the river in the quiet of the morning and remembered it, then improved it through some contemplation of the design. [​IMG]

    This, is seriously good. A folding loading stand that will precisely load all five .32 cannonballs.
     
  16. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    If it will work for .31's then it sounds like you're really on to something.
    And if its scale could be enlarged to work with larger snubbies then that would be groundbreaking. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  17. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    The design is simple, not a lot can mechanically go wrong aside from some part breaking. But I don't make crap, I make things that are utilitarian.

    This design should work for .44 and .36 snubs, and of course the little .31's. Tomorrow's job is gonna be to build one or maybe more. Honestly, I don't know if I'll be able to sleep tonight. I'm ichin' to break out the power tools and make something awesome.
     
  18. BCRider

    BCRider Member

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    I can see it being something sort of like a two hinged foldup sort of "nutcracker" style deal made from aluminium bar stock of good quality. In use it would fold up neatly but still be a little bulky for a pocket carry. However a belt pouch or simply keep it in a possibles bag along with the flask of powder and balls would not be out of the question at all.

    I'm just not sure how to make it look period correct. Hauling it out to use would be a little like anachronism of the wrist weapon used in Cowboys vs Aliens.... :D

    Have you got any ideas for how to design it yet? The sketch below just flashed into my head while writing this reply. In considering the dynamics of using a small folding "pocket loader" compared to a table top version I like the stability inherent in using a pull apart action instead of a squeeze together sort of action. In use one hand would grab the blue cylinder and lower portion of the frame and the other would hook around the lower end of the red lever and pull in the directions shown to ram the ball home.

    The rammer is shown as being a lot longer than it needs to be for two reasons. First is to give room to the cylinder for slipping it onto and off the center support rod. Second is that a longer rammer minimizes the angle change difference seen as the ram travels in a circular arc at the top.

    I suspect that if the cylinder pin was replaceable then different sizes for each cylinder could be used for the best possible support. And since the Remington cylinders use such a small pin there may need to be an extra "anvil" for support that sits in the elbow of the frame so the anvil takes the pressure instead of the pin trying to bend. In fact that's not a bad idea in any event even for Colt styles.

    The need to make the rammer in a couple of different diameters suggests that one size for .36 and .44 with a second smaller size that would work for the .31 and .36 sizes might work out best. Or perhaps replaceable rammer pins of the best diameter and length.

    As shown it would certainly slip into a back pocket. But the rammer handle would likely stick out if it's long enough to provide the leverage needed. And I see that I've also shown the rammer pin as being a trifle long. With the lever in the start position shown it should actually be up off the ball by a just a little.
     

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  19. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    Hey Levi I think it's a good idea as far as being a useful tool.Personally,I'd rather load my Rem cylinder out of the frame as many shooters do.Maybe you can do a prototype and take pictures of it and maybe have like a short instruction paper with it/how to use etc,and just get the idea out and see how the response is before you make too many,this way you won't get stuck with any of them.But I think it would be a good little tool for alot of shooters.I've been thinking about one ever since I've owned my .44 The NAA bp revolvers have to be loaded with them like you said and also there are quite a few models that require a separate loading tool like this so I'm thinking this would be good and everything I can think of just points to "positive" and we all know you have the skills to do this no prob. -ron-
     
  20. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    BCRider, I like that design. It does look like it would be a little difficult to make, but it's still a pretty good one and is still totally doable. Kinda makes me want to design one that mounts to the tailgate kinda like a C-clamp.. That would be pretty cool too for the high volume BP shooters here, and it would be just plain good to have.

    Ron, thank you for the kind words and the ideas. Making a short instructional sounds like a nice way to see if anybody truly wants one. My thoughts? How about I make a folding version and one that's just like NAA's version but in .32 caliber. Why not make both.

    Today I couldn't get a prototype together, it was pouring rain and muddy. Plus if I broke out and fired up the drill press I'd be riding the lightning and nobody would ever get a loading press. My sheltered work area isn't finished, and I still need some depot nails, 2x4's and screws to get it built so I can make these things. The shop/reloading room has been turned into the household dump.

    Rest assured, I took full advantage of the unfavorable weather conditions. I GOT TO GO MUDDIN'!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEHAW!!! Then of course I let God wash my truck for me while I warmed up by the fire with a hot cup of coffee. You couldn't tell what color my truck was! :D

    First dry day we get I'm building one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  21. YumaKid

    YumaKid Member

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    You had MORE rain in NorCal? Yesterday was the first completely sunny and dry day since last Wenesday around these parts! My son (16) harrowed the turnout arena at a good clip because he thought the little 4x4 Kubota would sink if he went too slow. Nothing pretty, just trying to fluff up the ground to promote drying.
    He came back in with only about 5000 mud "freckles".
     
  22. faustopph

    faustopph Member

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    articap,that is what I have been using for my .31 is my ball starter for my muzzleloader. It works good but is best with a table top or bench under the cylinder for consistent pressure when ramming the ball.
     
  23. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    This Colt cylinder loader that Smokin'Joe made is so amazingly simple that you've got to see it to believe it. It loads 3 balls at a time but only as deep as the face of the cylinder. To ram the balls any deeper would require an extra step such as using the frame mounted ram, a starter, or a dowel or such.
    But using filler might negate needing an extra step to ram the balls deeper.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7121933&postcount=17
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  24. kBob

    kBob Member

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    OK how did I miss that?

    I think perhaps mounting it on a block and using a speed wrench (ratchet wrench) might be interesting. I am alittle afraid of using a power drill with a socket driver on it but that might work if no open powder was about.

    Hmmm, perhaps threading three bolts into the top washer and dishing the ends out like the end of the pistol's ram might allow this to fully seat three at a time.

    Getting the balls stated enough to cut the ring of excess would still be a great way to not over stress the ram on say a little Remmie.31 '63. if this can be made to work for those. Also for a colt cut short and still having some of the ram left like the one on the current shortened Walker thread that could provide little leverage.

    Thanks for the link and thanks to the guy that came up with it.

    -kBob
     
  25. kBob

    kBob Member

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    Still wonder if taking a C or O type reloading press and mounting a cylinder arbor sized pin on the shell holder with a cushion or cutt out for the cylinder ratchets and providing a washer like that or one with individual short rams might not work.

    Maybe even a three at a time set for use with the Lee nit cracket tyle reloading tool.

    Just thinking.

    -kBob
     
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