Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Kirst Konverter cylinder for a 2nd gen Walker?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by SixShootinSam, Mar 8, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SixShootinSam

    SixShootinSam member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Glenn County, CA
    Now that I have the conversion cylinder fever, after getting one for my 58 remmie, I'm itching to get one for my Walker.

    However there is one catch, it's a 2nd Gen Colt. I've read that the 2nd gen colts are really made by Uberti, and just finished by Colt here in the U.S., so I'm really wondering if a Kirst konverter would work (a Uberti one).

    I'd like to ask someone with a digital caliper, if they can measure the diameter of their Uberti Walker cylinder pin, and of the Cylinder itself (BP cylinder).

    Thanks a bunch in advance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  2. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    First of all, the information you have read about 2nd Generation Colts is incorrect. 2nd Generation Colts were manufactured in the US by Colts Manufacturing, Inc. Some of the raw castings (notice: RAW CASTINGS) were provided by Uberti. Other parts were made by Colt employees, and the cast parts were machined by Colt employees on Colt machines using Colt processes. The guns were completely assembled, timed and tested by Colt employees using Colt procedures. It's time this myth was put to death.

    Although I believe these numbers will be of little use, here are the measurements from my Uberti Walker and my ASM Walker:

    Uberti cylinder diameter: 1.873"
    Uberti cylinder length: 2.565"
    Uberti cylinder arbor diameter: 0.571"

    ASM cylinder diameter: 1.868"
    ASM cylinder length: 2.575"
    ASM cylinder arbor diameter: 0.575"
     
  3. SixShootinSam

    SixShootinSam member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Glenn County, CA
    Oh, of all the people to help me, it just had to be you Mykeal :D
    Thanks for the dimensions. And why would the numbers be of little use? if the dimensions are off, I would not even bother researching it any further.
    It so happens that they are very close though.

    Second of all, as some (or most apparently) parts were produced by Uberti, I dont see why it's a myth. They had a hand in it.

    Anyway, thanks again, looking forward to another correction.
     
  4. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    I thought I was quite clear on this. It's exactly the opposite. NO parts were produced by Uberti. They supplied ONLY rough castings of a few parts which were then machined (ie, finished, which means produced) by Colt's Manufacturing.

    Uberti's 'having a hand in it' is a far cry from the utterly mythical, 'the 2nd gen colts are really made by Uberti'.
     
  5. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Northern Orygun
    The only parts that Uberti supplied for the 2nd gen Walker were raw barrels and cylinders. These raw parts were machined and finished at Colt. The remaining parts were manufactured in North America.

    Uberti may of had a little finger in it, but hardly a hand.

    I think you well find the Uberti conversion cylinder well be about .010 short. You could machine the lug for fit but then the original cylinder would not fit with out machining. Probably cheaper to buy a used Uberti Walker and convert it.
     
  6. SixShootinSam

    SixShootinSam member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Glenn County, CA
    "I thought I was quite clear on this."

    Hmm, with all the lobbying for compassion in another thread, may I suggest some humility for yourself mr Mykeal? Your snarky answers in most threads aren't very 'high road'. You may think otherwise, but you are not the sole authority on subjects here, so answers like "I thought I was quite clear on this" just don't belong here. Just because you say something is a certain way, does not mean it is! :) Kinda like "dont believe everything you read in a newspaper" kinda thing.
    But I must digress, before this turns into another personal whaa whaa thread.

    Have a fine day sir Mykeal.


    And yes, madcratebuilder, you're probably right, should never have gotten a 2nd gen in the first place, parts are much harder to find, even from coltparts.com, not to mention very pricey.
     
  7. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    I have no problem with that. You're certainly free to publish evidence to the contrary at any time.
     
  8. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    6,185
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    A misunderstanding or what?

    madcratebuilder & mykeal,

    Now I'm confused. According to the following article hardly any guns were actually built and finished by Colt except for some that were diverted to the Colt Custom Shop in the white for engraving and embellishment.
    So the above statements seem to be mistaken or a cover up or a misrepresentation about which company and whose workers actually built most all of the 2nd Generation Colts. They certainly weren't made at Colt or by Colt employees but were shipped to Colt already finished.
    So how does the above misinformation about who built them ever get started?

    The following excerpts are from a Bluebook PDF article on their website without a current security certificate but I never hesitate to open the file up despite the warnings.
    The truth about exactly who built mostly all of these Colt guns really needs to be told. ;)



    Page 26:

    https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf



    Page 24:

    https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf

     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  9. SixShootinSam

    SixShootinSam member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Glenn County, CA
    Good find arcticap!, interesting read as well. Looks like some people are misinformed ;).
     
  10. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ok, now, after reading the above article, what do you think is the name of the company that actually built the 2nd Generation Colts?

    And what is the name of the company that actually builds the car model named Focus?
     
  11. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    6,185
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    It looks like they were built under contract by Iver Johnson and/or Lou Emperato and workers the he hired and paid the wages to. But the parts certainly were not machined by Colt or at Colt as claimed.

    What's there to be evasive about?
    As nice as they are they're still only Colt clones.

    Even though cars and guns aren't the same, now maybe you'll tell us who owns the plant and pays the wages of the workers who build the Ford Focus? :rolleyes:

    Just because some foreign auto companies like Sasuki have made cars that were rebadged with American nameplates doesn't mean that folks are really supposed to believe that they were actually made in Detroit. :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  12. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    Let me help you out. The name of the company was Colt's Manufacturing, Inc. Imperato and Johnson worked for Colt's Manufacturing, Inc. as subcontractors.

    Per Dennis Adler and John Allen's "Bluebook of Modern Black Powder Arms":
    Colt's Manufacturing Co., Inc. claims they made the guns. They used subcontractors and issued licenses in doing so. Such techniques are an every day part of modern business. It surprises me to see that described as misrepresentation, but if that's how you wish to describe it, I must plead guilty.

    Even given that misrepresentation, I can't see how one comes to the conclusion that Uberti actually made the guns for Colt, which is the claim that I initially wanted to refute, and still believe is incorrect. And it's simply that: incorrect. I don't see it as a misrepresentation. Or am I wrong there too?
     
  13. SixShootinSam

    SixShootinSam member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    116
    Location:
    Glenn County, CA
    Such semantics, seriously I dont think too many people actually give a ****.
    I asked a simple question about diameters, and now it's derailed to a nitpicking about who made what thanks to....Mykeal again. The barrel and cylinder were either cast in Italy, the rest in the USA, or both fully assembled in Italy and inspected in the USA.

    I guess we'll never know, and frankly, if there needs to be such childishness over small details, I dont even care to know. Whatever happened to the nice forum we used to have here? Seems there are a few miserable folks here who have been on their period for a while now.
    My question has been answered.
    Thanks for the info arcticap, at least you can phrase it without being condescending.

    Ciao.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    6,185
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Where does Colt or anyone else say that?

    Not one word in the quote states that anything was actually made by Colt as previously claimed.
    The words that were previously used stated "finished, machined, finished i.e. produced, at Colt and by Colt".

    These guns were made for Colt but not by Colt or at Colt which are your words.

    Nothing was machined and very little was actually produced by Colt besides embellishment and the finishing of some Colt Custom Shop guns.
    Let's not promulgate that somehow behind the scenes the guns were produced by Colt and Colt employees when it's documented that they weren't. They were merely inspected by Colt in finished form while being built by a 3rd party, independent subcontractor.
    That means that Colt could only chose to reject a finished gun and were not in control of how it was made by the independent subcontractor.

    According to the IRS:

    Please be so kind and tell us all who assembles the Ford Focus and machines and builds its parts and components? :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  15. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ford Motor Company, Dearborn, MI. At least in my opinion.

    I guess, and tell me if I'm wrong, that under your definition, it's Standard and Cooper in Gaylord, Michigan.

    I can't believe you're not aware that Colt's Manufacturing Co. Inc. will provide a letter authenticating a 2nd Generation Colt as a Colt product. That's been stated in Adler's books and on this forum dozens of times. So where is it stated that Colt claims they made the guns? In their authentication letters.

    In addition, there's the statement from Adler:
    Is Adler part of this misrepresentation?

    You, and I, actually have no details on what Colt's Manufacturing controlled in terms of their subcontracts with Forgett, Johnson and Imperato. We do know from Adler's book that:
    That's a whole lot more than just approving the final product. It implies the existence of Detailed Product Design Specifications and Production Specifications. I can't state conclusively whether there were such documents, but it's certain that Colt's Manufacturing Co. had a great deal more than just final inspection approval.

    I'm left wondering why you chose to challenge my statements about the manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colts but not those of the OP when he claimed they were made by Uberti? Do you believe the guns were made by Uberti? How do you reconcile the fact that there was no prime contractor/subcontractor relationship between Forgett and Uberti, but there was between Forgett and Colt's Manufacturing Co.?

    I have no issue with my remarks being considered as lacking credibility; after all, this is the internet and you don't know me from the corner pretzel vendor. But I don't understand why you find Adler unbelievable. His works on Colt firearms are considered definitive by most of the community. Are there some data that shows he's incorrect that I'm not aware of?
     
  16. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Northern Orygun
    All this does not change the fact that Uberti only supplied raw barrels and cylinders.

    From what I can gather from documented and undocumented articles is Val supplied the Colt custom shop with parts for the C series, Lou subcontracted with Colt for the F series.

    Colt did the color case hardening for both series, controlled all manufacturing specifications, did finial inspections and shipped the final product.

    If you compare a C or F series 2nd gen to it's Uberti counterpart, side by side, you well see a difference, both in dimensions and quality.
     
  17. fineredmist

    fineredmist Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    Wethersfield, Ct.
    According to my neighbor who was a manufacturing engineer at Colt in the early 1970's, Uberti supplied the major components (frame, barrel and lever, hammer and front and rear grip sections) and the small internal machined parts and springs were locally produced. The parts were final machined in the Colt plant in Hartford. The blueing and the case hardening were done in Hartford useing the same equipment that was used on the original firearms. The guns were assembled by a small group of dedicated workers.
    The blueing tanks and the case hardening furnace were the originals and produced the beautiful blue and great case colors of the early guns. Colt spent a great deal of time and money in an effort to move this equipment to their new West Hartford plant. The tanks and furnace were in poor condition and literally came apart when workers attempted to dismantle them. Colt again spent a lot of time and money trying to duplicate the finishes they obtained from the old tanks and furnace but were unsuccessful.
     
  18. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Northern Orygun
    fineredmist, thanks for that information. That's pretty much what I have been able to put together from different print interviews of Forgett and Imperato.

    Your neighbor should write his memoirs about his time at Colt. There is little documented information about what went on inside the building.
     
  19. fineredmist

    fineredmist Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Messages:
    512
    Location:
    Wethersfield, Ct.
    Madcrate,
    Colt went so far as having the tank material and the retort fire brick analyized so the could dulilicate them. The results showed that the chemical composition was complex and that only time could "cure" the tanks and the fire brick. You might say the process is similiar to "seasoning" a cast iron skellet.
     
  20. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,473
    The Iver Johnson part of these Colts ...turns me off ..I`ve owned several of the Iver Johnson revolvers ..and can say they indeed build truck guns ...junk ..you can keep under the seat of your truck and not hurt a good revolver .
    In this neck of the woods Iver Johnsons sell for 50 bucks on a good day .
     
  21. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Northern Orygun
    Iver Johnson didn't have anything to do with either the 2nd or 3rd gen Colts.

    Lou Imperato owned IJ and also owned Colt Blackpowder Arms Co.

    FoMoCo made the Lincoln and the Pinto. GM made the Chevette and the Cadillac.
     
  22. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    6,185
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    There still seems to be a contradiction about who made the frames and all of the other parts and where they were finished right in this very thread.

    finedredmist states that his neighbor indicated that they originated from Uberti, while Imperato clearly stated in the article that they were made at Iver Johnson. The same is said about the other little parts, case color and bluing.

    Imperato also indicates that the case color and blue finish wasn't done in Hartford but at Iver Johnson:

    https://www.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/POWDER/MBPHistoryOfColtBlack.pdf


    So madcratebuilder, what do you mean that Iver Johnson didn't have "anything" to do with the Colts?
    It's seems that for the most part that they were built at Iver Johnson.
    That's nothing to be ashamed about just because some folks don't like Iver Johnson's reputation or their other products.
    Iver Johnson also made receivers for their civilian version of the M-1 Carbine and they're of notably high quality. Just because Iver Johnson didn't manufacture a lot of high cost models doesn't mean that they weren't capable of it, or that the Colts weren't made there or by Imperato's workers for the most part.

    Is there really any doubt about the accuracy of Imperato's statements?
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  23. mykeal

    mykeal Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,147
    Location:
    Michigan
    I don't believe there's any contradiction at all. I think it's just a difference between the 2nd and 3rd Generation guns. Colt's Manufacturing built the 2nd Generation Guns and Colt Blackpowder Inc. built the 3rd Generation guns. That's apparent from the dates referenced by Imperato in his narrative.

    Colt's Manufacturing Co. claims the 2nd Generation guns as their own product and will so state in writing, while they do not do so for 3rd Generation guns (there is some dispute about that last point - there are people who claim to have 3rd Generation authentication letters and there are other people who claim to have been turned down by Colt's Manufacturing when they requested one).
     
  24. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,020
    Location:
    Northern Orygun
    Not at all, your quote of Lou is in reference to the 3rd gen F series, not the 2nd gen F series.



    Colt Blackpowder Arms Co (3rd gen) was based out of the Iver Johnson plant, I believe that is what he (Lou) is referring to.


    I have read the same. I have advertising material for the 3rd gens that claim you can letter the revolvers. I have not attempted to do this so I can not say one way or the other.
     
  25. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,473
    The Blue Book of black powder arms does say Colt contracted Iver Johnson to make them for a period of 4 years , 1979 to 82 I beleive ...I was thinking it was a longer period than that ...my mistake .
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page