Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

"Knocking Out The Moros" This month in "Gun World" by Jan Libourel. Don't miss

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by BHP9, Apr 15, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BHP9

    BHP9 member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    399
    It was a little to late to vindicate my recent post about the Thompson tests in which I was attacked with a ferver by .45 loves that went way beyond religious fanatacism but Jan Libourel states in this very interesting article that----------------------

    .


    He also states that the 30/40 Kraig was a poor stopper and that the 30-06 did do better in the war when it was used in place of the 30/40 Kraig.

    Jan also sights the 1983 Gun Digest Study that claimed----------

    Unfortunately out of all the Gun Digests that I have I do not have a copy of the 1983 issue. It would have been interesting to review some of the info that I remember reading about the Thompson tests when I read about it back then.


    This is only a small part of Jan's article this month and now do not attack me but attack Jan ,he wrote it this month not I. So save the flames for him.

    But I will say this much I do agree with much of what he says. Unlike other gun writers, with good old" Chucky "at the top of the list I find Jan's level headed articles a lot more relevant and believable than other gun writers of today.
     
  2. DeltaElite

    DeltaElite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Next to my Delta Gold Cup
  3. DeltaElite

    DeltaElite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Next to my Delta Gold Cup
    If I tell you 9mm is the best, will you go away? :neener:
     
  4. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    9,325
    Location:
    Hoosieropolis
    Jan Libourel... snicker :D

    Carry on, man...
     
  5. care-less

    care-less member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Illinois
    The 45 was pushed down everyones throats back then by the old timers who grew up on the frontier; and were then in charge in the army. The same thing happened with the small caliber assault rifle. The "old" timers wanted to keep the 30 cal, so we ended up with the obsolete M14. It has always been that way! Even back in 1873, many wanted nothing less than the 54 cal! By the way, during the Korean war, it was reported that the 9mm did much better during the winter months than the 45; the 45 did better during the summer when the chinese were not wearing heavy quilted uniforms. It is more a matter of penetration than anything else when it comes to handgun ammo.:) Use what you want, they all work; in the right place, and deep enough!
     
  6. DeltaElite

    DeltaElite Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,339
    Location:
    Next to my Delta Gold Cup
    You are correct care-less, that is why the 10mm trumps the 9mm and the 45acp. :D
     
  7. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,847
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Jan Libourel

    Hmmmmmm....... Isn't that the Dutch guy who thinks gun control is OK? Yep. OK, carry on....
     
  8. triggertime

    triggertime Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    TN
    Yep. That's the guy...aka Jan Liberal...guffaw
     
  9. CZF

    CZF Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,988
    Interesting. Seems that another bottlenecked cartridge is also
    a good stopper. The .357 SIG and it's "Lightning Bolt" effect.
    Texas DPS (among other agencies) appears to be very happy with it.

    I also would choose my Shotgun over any other firearm
    if i was to go in Harm's Way in an urban setting.

    Beretta 1201 FP

    IN 12 Guage We Trust!
     
  10. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,233
    Location:
    Central IN
    I thought everyone already knew that the 45ACP saved the day in the Philippines ? Just like the .30 Luger did as well as the 45ACP did in the T-L tests? :rolleyes:
     
  11. BigG

    BigG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    7,081
    Location:
    Dixieland
    Cratz, it was 45 COLT in the 1873 Peacemaker that was issued in the PI as an emergency stopgap, iirc.

    30 Luger did not do as well as 45 in the Thompson/Lagarde tests, except it was hell on head shots.

    The Soviets proved 30 caliber (7.62 x 25) was a good killer as they used it many times to shoot their victims in the back of the head at close range. Quite a few million of them, iirc. :uhoh:
     
  12. care-less

    care-less member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Messages:
    178
    Location:
    Illinois
    DeltaElite, I totally agree on the 10mm, excellent cartridge; I wish they would load to original specs.:)
     
  13. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,233
    Location:
    Central IN
    I know BigG... I was just poking fun at the previous thread concerning the 45ACPs so-called ineffectiveness during testing before it was introduced. ;)
     
  14. BHP9

    BHP9 member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    399
    Actually that is not quite correct. According to the Gun World article the Phillipean insurrection went on for a number of years and the Colt 1911 was issued against the Moros at the tail end of the conflict. And again supposedly did no better than the .45 revolver or the 38 revolvers that were used. The conflict was still going on as late as 1913. Again I quote from Gun World,.
     
  15. Blueduck

    Blueduck Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,184
    Lets not forget the ".38" used against the Moro's was not even equal to the lightest 38 special target loads.

    What we learned from the Moro's: .36 caliber round nosed lead rounds driven to a low velocity from a handgun do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly.

    What we learned in all the intervening years: Handgun rounds do not reliably stop drugged or crazed attackers immediatly.



    :scrutiny:
     
  16. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    14,651
    Location:
    Centennial, CO
    Everyone KNOWS the army sent a bunch of 1873 and 1878 .45 Colts to the Phillipines. (heck there is an 1878 called the "Phillipine model) the reason WHY may have been exaggerated over the years, but its also true that the 38 Colt was an anemic cartridge.
     
  17. Mute

    Mute Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Messages:
    962
    Location:
    Behind occupied territories. CA.
    Wow! This is the cream of the crop. If we can get David Hackworth to join this chorus, who'd dare to question the conclusions? :rolleyes:
     
  18. jc2

    jc2 member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,235
    He probably like Duane Thomas and Ed Sanow--talk about "Send in the Clowns!"

    Once his mind is made ol' Jan never lets the facts confuse him.
     
  19. buttrap

    buttrap Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,088
    Location:
    Oregon
    Well on the odd side it was the .30 luger round that did the only chest shot kill in the T-L tests. How odd....
     
  20. blades67

    blades67 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,771
    Location:
    Mesa, Arizona, USA
    :what: A shotgun was more effective than a handgun?! Do the gunrag hacks know about this?:rolleyes:
     
  21. Kentucky Rifle

    Kentucky Rifle Member In Memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Messages:
    1,416
    Location:
    Louisville, Ky.
    I hope I don't get the thread closed...

    ...however, weren't those Moros all hopped up on some durg, PLUS had their "'nads" all tied up in hard "Granny knots" besides? There's a great reason right there to want to get the battle over in a hurry! Hack up the opposition and then hack those Granny knots off the ol' nads. :)

    KR
     
  22. jc2

    jc2 member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,235
    Two nations had extensive experience with frontier warfare/colonial during the late 19th and early 20th century--the United States and Britain. Both nations stuck with large, relatively slow moving bullets in their handguns based on their experience with the same (at the same time they did move to fast, small moving bullets in their rifles).

    To state "the 45 was pushed down everyones throats back then by the old timers who grew up on the frontier; and were then in charge in the army," certainly either misrepresents (or represents a misunderstanding of) the history of the period. Don't forget, those same "old timers" also adopted the the .30-40 Krag (a "foreign" bolt action rifle) and then the .30-06 (and later adopted the first autoloading rifle adopted by any military--years ahead of the "competition".) In fact, those "old timers" adopted a very modern autoloading handgun in 1911--sounds kind of forward thinking to me, doesn't it to you?

    The T-L Tests were an attempt to "scientifically" pick the best round at a time when the handgun still played a significant role. It wasn't perfect, but it did work (certainly as well as most other "scientific" methods--and a heck of a lot better than some more "modern" methods like the RII). With state of bullet development at the time (don't forget, most of the progress in bullet design has occurred in the last ten to fifteen years), they picked a good round--and if all of a sudden, we really had to depend on handguns again, and all you had was a choice of FMJ or FMJ, you'd probably see a whole lot of .45s in holsters.
     
  23. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,233
    Location:
    Central IN
    Libourel and Thomas are without a doubt, the absolute worst trashiest writers I've read. Thomas changes his mind every other issue and it's really hard to respect that. Would you take advice from someone that just found their dream gun 2 months ago? I did enjoy his shoot-offs comparing SA to DA, snub 38 to little 380 and custom guns to stock ones. But I sure would hate to rely on either of them to actually guide me through a decision.

    If either of them worked in a gunshop, we'd all make fun of them behind their backs but since they're published, some poor misguided folks give them credence they've never earned.
     
  24. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    6,482
    Location:
    Waynesboro, Georgia
    You might want to check out the imperial expansion of the Russian Empire during the 19th century...
     
  25. Handy

    Handy Guest

    BHP9,

    You didn't get attacked by ".45 loves". You were attacked for using poor examples and faulty logic.


    And using too much bold print.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page