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Known or is a mystery of "Mauser-Nickl"!!

Discussion in 'Firearms Research' started by juangomez, Jul 10, 2012.

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  1. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    Hello

    Do not post here if any? Here we go.

    I have 2 M16 Mauser pistol

    A rotating barrel system has inherited as the vz-22.

    These are 9 mm Parabellum.

    The question is which system is the other?

    Known or is a mystery of "Mauser-Nickl"!!

    greetings Juangomez
     
  2. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/VZ22/vz22.html

    Only thing I could find using Nickl + Mauser pistols in search engine. 2nd paragraph has some explanation but limits it to Mausers Model 1910 and 1914... nada reference on a Model '16.

    Perhaps you have 2 prototype pistols manufactured in 1916 by Mauser but never sold to public or militaries? If so, pretty rare I would think.
     
  3. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    pistol mauser "N" M1916

    Hello actually are experimental prototypes.

    The issue was whether the systems are known mechanisms.

    You have the classic and renowned barrel rotating system.

    The unpublished and / or mystery is the other!

    Anyone know anything about this system.

    Or is it a find?


    greetings juangomez
     
  4. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    I'm guessing this. Show us some photos juan, clue us in on this 96 year old mystery (and the world maybe). Many experts on board here... someone might have an inkling if they knew the basic operating system thet Nickl used in them.

    Hard to imagine something new in the world of semi auto design.

    Oh, by the way, Welcome to THR (forgive my belated manners) ;)
     
  5. gyvel

    gyvel Member

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    Josef Nickl used the rotating barrel system on the CZ22 and CZ 24 Czech guns, so the system was certainly NOT unknown at the time. It was previously used on the Roth Steyr Model 1907 as well as the Steyr Model 1912. As a sidenote, it was also used on the later (1930s) Mexican Obregon .45 pistol

    It is very likely that you have a couple of prototypes, and if I recall from some of your previous posts, I did refer you to some examples illustrated in the 1958 publication The World's Guns.

    :
     
  6. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    pistol mauser nickl no rotating barrel and 9x19 mm

    Hello again:
    Sorry for my English I am assisted by google translator.
    Thanks for the welcome to the forum.

    I would love to show he's impossible but I asked my father.
    Very well done Gyvel the tasks with respect to some data, but I fear that you and the books do not know all the information.

    My father has 2 pistols like you said they are both 9 mm Parabellum (9x19).

    But there are more similar to COLT1911 size.
    And last but not least one of them has no rotating barrel !!!

    is a system that I think Years later after WWII became famous for another brand and one model of pistol I do not know the names.
    But it is still quite a find for the history of semiautomatic pistols.
    Again sorry I can not say more or show more.
    I thought this system was known mechanism!

    greetings juangomez

    PD serial numbers are practically correlative as extra bonus
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  7. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    mystery of Josef Nickl

    I personally know 5 copies per photo and none of them considered with the other.

    Some are Waffenfabrik Mauser and other Mauser Werke.
    Some have sizes of 1911 and other size COLT M1914.
    Some are 9 mm Parabellun 9x19 and 9x17 Nickl other 9 mm RR.
    Some have straight segrinado and other oblique.
    All have external hammers.
    Except for my father who is in Needle sure the rest are targeted stares.


    There are many variables and few copies.
    There are many mysteries and few truths.
    There are many assumptions and few certainties.


    greetings juangomez
     
  8. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    aviso

    la verdad no entendi el mensaje que me mandaron y por lo tanto no escribo mas en este foro si me escriben en privado constestare, dependiendo del tema de la consulta.

    Gracias por todo y las fotos son mias y el blog tambien.
    Saludos seudonimo juangomez



    the truth is not understood the message they sent me and therefore I do not write more on this forum if constestare write me privately, depending on the subject of consultation.

    Thanks for everything and the pictures are mine and the blog too.
    Greetings pseudonym juangomez
     
  9. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    idioma

    Yo no lo entiendo !!!

    Ademas escriba en un solo idioma, para que yo lo entienda.

    Saludos


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I do not understand!

    You type in one language, that I understand.

    regards
     
  10. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Bienvenido al foro, señor. La mayoría de nuestros miembros sólo hablan Inglés. Algunos de nosotros hablamos un poco de español, pero no muy bien. Su petición parece más bien técnico. Traductores informáticos suelen elegir una palabra incorrecta cuando hay más de un significado posible. Tal vez si le preguntas a tu pregunta en español para transmitir el significado de su pregunta con precisión en su propio idioma, y nos permiten tratar de traducir a nuestra lengua propia, que podría ser más eficaz. ¿Sabes el país de origen de las pistolas? ¿Hay marcas en las pistolas que pueden ser de ayuda para identificarlos?
     
  11. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    Hola de nuevo:

    Lo siento por mi Inglés
    Estoy asistido por traductor de google.
    Gracias por la bienvenida al foro.


    Muy bien hecho Gyvel las tareas con respecto a algunos datos, pero me temo que usted y los libros no saben toda la información.

    Mi padre tiene 2 pistolas, como usted ha dicho que ambos son de 9 mm Parabellum (9x19)

    Pero son de tamaño más similares a COLT1911 .

    Una tiene el sistema de caño rotativo y lo mas importante es que la otra no tiene caño rotativo !

    Es un sistema que creo que años más tarde tras la Segunda Guerra Mundial se hizo famoso por otra marca y un modelo de la pistola que no sé como se llama .

    Pero sigue siendo todo un hallazgo para la historia de pistolas semiautomáticas.

    Una vez más lo siento, no puedo decir más o mostrar más.
    Pensé que este sistema de mecanismo era conocido!

    saludos juangomez

    PD Los números de serie son prácticamente correlativos como bono extra
     
  12. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Señor,

    Su pregunta es muy interesante. Sin ver o desarmar las pistolas, es difícil decir con certeza, pero mi conjetura personal es que su segunda pistola (la que tiene un cañón sin rotación) es más probable un prototipo, un intento de Mauser para crear una pistola con un cañón fijado, como más tarde sería utilizado en los Czeska Zbrojovka / BRNO pistolas 9x17 y 9x18 mm (y sus copias) de Europa Central y Oriental. Teniendo en cuenta que antes de la Segunda Guerra Mundial, muchas pistolas Mauser se vendieron en América del Sur, esto no parece improbable. Por favor vea la información que se encuentra en el enlace que aparece a continuación.

    Desde http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/chex/cz-vz22-vz24-e.html La pistola Armádni Vz.22, o el modelo del Ejército de pistola 22 fue producido en Checoslovaquia entre 1922 y 1924, sobre la base de las patentes y pistolas 9 milímetros experimentales desarrollados en Alemania por Nickl diseñador de armas. Sus primeras armas fueron desarrollados en la fábrica Mauser famoso, pero en la década de 1920 Checoslovaquia compró sus patentes y Nickl escalar su arma ligeramente por debajo de 9x19 Luger 9x17 de Browning Short (también conocido como 9mm Kurz o ACP 0.380) municiones. Después de años de producción y uso, el diseño básico fue mejorado notablemente por el checo Frantisek Myska brazos de diseño. De esta forma mejora la nueva arma fue adoptada por el ejército checoslovaco como Armádni Vz.24 pistola, o el modelo del Ejército de pistola 24. Se produjo en un número significativo entre 1925 y 1944. Las entregas se hicieron con el gobierno checoslovaco, con el gobierno alemán (durante la ocupación de Checoslovaquia por la Alemania de Hitler), y también a una serie de otros países de Europa y América del Sur. Cabe señalar que las pistolas tanto Vz.22 y Vz.24 eran demasiado complicados y de alguna manera lo suficientemente confiable, debido al hecho de que el sistema rotatorio de bloqueo barril, lo que fue concebido originalmente para disparar munición de 9x19 Luger, no era realmente necesario para disparar notablemente menos Browning corto alcance 9x17 municiones, que en ese momento era el estándar para el ejército checoslovaco.

    ----

    Espero que esto sea útil para usted ... gracias por darnos la oportunidad de probar! -TS
     
  13. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Sir,

    Your question is very interesting. Without seeing or disassembling the gun, it is difficult to say with certainty, but my personal guess is that your second gun (the one with a non-rotating barrel) is most likely a prototype, an attempt to create a Mauser pistol with a fixed barrel such as would later be used in Czeska Zbrojovka / BRNO's 9x17 and 9x18 mm pistols (and copies) of Central and Eastern Europe. Considering that before the Second World War, many Mauser pistols were sold in South America, this does not seem unlikely. Please see the information found on the link below.

    From http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/chex/cz-vz22-vz24-e.html
    The Armádni pistole Vz.22, or Army pistol model 22 was produced in Czechoslovakia between 1922 and 1924, based on patents and experimental 9mm pistols developed in Germany by arms designer Nickl. His early guns were developed at famous Mauser factory, but in early 1920s Czechoslovakia bought his patents and Nickl scaled his gun slightly down from 9x19 Luger to 9x17 Browning Short (also known as 9mm Kurz or .380ACP) ammunition. After few years of production and use, the basic design was noticeably improved by Czech arms designer Frantisek Myska. In this improved form the new pistol was adopted by Czechoslovak army as Armádni pistole Vz.24, or Army pistol model 24. It was produced in significant numbers between 1925 and 1944. Deliveries were made to Czechoslovak government, to German government (during occupation of Czechoslovakia by Hitler's Germany), and also to a number of other European and South American countries.
    It must be noted that both Vz.22 and Vz.24 pistols were too complicated and somehow insufficiently reliable, due to the fact that rotary barrel locking system, which was originally devised to fire 9x19 Luger ammunition, was not really necessary to fire noticeably less powerful 9x17 Browning Short ammunition, which at the time was standard for Czechoslovak army.

    --------
    I hope this is helpful to you ... thanks for giving us the opportunity to try!

    -TS
     
  14. gyvel

    gyvel Member

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    More than likely, his non rotating barrel is one of Mauser's 9mm prototypes that used locking flaps, similar to the later MG 42.
     
  15. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    Mauser- Nickl pistol prototype

    Ambas son Prototipos.

    Una la conocida como 9 mm Parabellum de Josef Nickl. Obvio con cañon rotativo.
    La otra claro esta no identificada en ningun libro de armas con sistema de cañon no rotativo pero en calibre 9 mm Parabellum.

    Ambas en tamaño similar al COLT 1911 y con martillos externos.

    Perdon es suposicion o esta en algun libro el tema de "locking flaps" ?

    Saludos juangomez

    vea fotos en http://experimentalpistolsmauser-nickl.blogspot.com.ar/2011/10/experimental-pistols-mauser-nickl-in-9.html
     
  16. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    Mauser- Nickl pistol prototype

    Both are prototypes.

    One is known as the 9 mm Parabellum Josef Nickl. Obviously with rotating barrel.
    The other course is not identified in any book of weapons with non-rotating barrel system but in caliber 9 mm Parabellum.

    Both in size similar to the COLT 1911 and with external hammers.

    Forgiveness is supposition or is in any book the theme of "locking flaps"?

    greetings juangomez

    see photos in http://experimentalpistolsmauser-nickl.blogspot.com.ar/2011/10/experimental-pistols-mauser-nickl-in-9.html
     
  17. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Handguns of the World by Edward Ezell, page 408, shows the Mauser Model 1912/1914.

    It is said to have flap locking but the only pictures of that type action are of the Model 1906/1908 which has the magazine in front of the trigger guard instead of in the butt.

    Ezell says that a few hundred of these were sold to Brazil.


    Gun Collector's Digest, 5th Edition, 1989, page 63, has an article about the 1906/08 but shows other flap locking Mausers including the 1912/1914 pistol and the 1916 rifle.

    There was one of the type sold at auction:
    http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/1351
     
  18. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    pistol mauser nickl

    Hello

    Without wishing to annoy but all the pistols you say, have nothing to do with mine.

    And with respect to any unknown system says that book is the description, only talks about the pistol Nickl rotary cannon.

    Or am I wrong?

    Bye juangomez
     
  19. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I think that we have found all that can be known about your Nickl Pistole with rotating barrel since last year.

    Please show pictures of your flap locking Mauser.
     
  20. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    info Mauser Nickl pistol

    Hola JW:

    Con respecto a la informacion de la pistola Mauser Nickl es escasa.
    Desconozco la cantidad que se hicieron, con que numeracion y que calibre se conocen con fotos o documentadas (sin suposicion).

    Con respecto a la pistola inedita, nunca dije que sistema era (en este foro creyeron que es "flap locking").

    Yo se bien que sistema es, solo quiero confirmar si se lo conoce o es totalmente extraño del conocimiento publico.

    Saludos juangomez

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hello JW:

    Information regarding of the pistol Mauser Nickl is scarce.
    I do not know how much you made, that numbering and size is known or documented with photos (not supposition).

    With respect to the pistol unpublished, I never said that system was (in this forum is believed that "flap locking").

    I know well that system is, I just want to confirm if known or is totally foreign public knowledge.

    greetings juangomez
     
  21. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I have exhausted my references and interest in the matter. Good luck in your continuing inquiries.
     
  22. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    pistola que no figura en los libros

    hola nuevamente:

    creo que no quedan claras mis ideas.

    tengo 2 pistolas.

    una es la que ustedes comentan y conocida por todos, incluso figura en algunos libros.

    Pero la otra pistola que tiene la misma apariencia por dentro es totalmente diferente, utiliza otro mecanismo y no tiene cañon rotativo !!


    Saludos espero que me expliquen que sistemas figuran documentados.

    juangomez
     
  23. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    pistola NO publicada

    Hi JW


    I tell him this photos on my blog

    http://experimentalpistolsmauser-ni...0/experimental-pistols-Mauser-nickl-in-9.html

    Also tell him the appearance does not matter in this case, the important thing is what's inside.

    You have another mechanism that is not listed in any book and nobody knows how it is because not this posted in the books.

    The other gun is the classic Rotary cannon.

    Greetings juangomez

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hola JW


    Le cuento las fotos esta en mi blog

    http://experimentalpistolsmauser-ni...0/experimental-pistols-mauser-nickl-in-9.html

    Ademas le cuento que no importa la apariencia en este caso, lo importante es lo de adentro.

    Tiene otro mecanismo que no figura en ningun libro y nadie sabe como es porque NO ESTA PUBLICADO EN LOS LIBROS.

    La otra pistola es la clasica de cañon rotativo.

    Saludos juangomez
     
  24. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Pictures show outside.
    Mechanism is inside.
    I do not know what you have.
     
  25. juangomez

    juangomez Member

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    interior

    Lo siento muchisimo que usted quiera ver el interior de la pistola.

    Lamentablemente mi padre es muy reticente con sus armas, usted sabe es una presona sexagenaria.... le pido disculpas.

    Incluso la conocida de caño rotativo tampoco la muestra.

    Fijese que solo me permitio mostrar estas fotos al mundo de las armas , luego de decadas de insistir (y eso que soy el hijo).

    Por algo sera que no se conocen durante decadas que estuvieron en mi familia.

    Solo le pido que confie en mi que realmente es diferente al resto de las publicadas .

    Que yo sepa solo son caño rotativos !! las que se publicaron.

    De apariencia todas se parecen un poco mas o un poco menos.

    Otro gran detalle que todo el mundo cree que es de tamaño pequeño pero realmente son de dimensiones parecidas a la pistola COLT 1911.

    Incluso tienen el calibre 9x19 o 9 mm Parabellum o 9 mm Luger como mas le guste.

    Si usted o alguna persona sabe otros sistemas mecanicos publicados en algun libro o documento fidedigno, no duden en mandarme un email lynchess@gmail.com o un mensaje privado.

    Saludos juangomez
     
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