L.E.O.s : Would you confiscate?

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This is one of those questions where geography seems to come into play.

You guys in California seem to think it's a foregone conclusion. Those of us in the south (and evidently Alaska) are wondering how you can afford all the tinfoil.

I have to tell you, the LEOs I know will be the first ones digging positions.
 
From Dave Grossman's book On Killing.
Dr. Stanley Milgram's famous studies at Yale University on obedience and aggression found that in a controlled laboratory environment more than 65 percent of his subjects could be readily manipulated into inflicting a (seemingly) lethal electrical charge on a total stranger. The subjects sincerely believed that they were causing great physical pain, but despite their victim's pitiful pleas for them to stop, 65 percent continued to obey orders, increase the voltage, and inflict the shocks until long after the screams stopped and there could be little doubt that their victim was dead. ....

Freud warned us to "never underestimate the power of the need to obey," and this research by Milgram (which has since been replicated many times in half a dozen different countries) validates Freud's intuitive understanding of human nature. Even when the trappings of authority are no more than a white lab coat and a clipboard, this is the kind of response that Milgram was able to elicit:

"I observed a mature and initially poised businessman enter the laboratory smiling and confident. Within 20 minutes he was reduced to a twitching, stuttering wreck, who was rapidly approaching a point of nervous collapse.... At one point he pushed his fist into his forehead and muttered: 'Oh God, let's stop it.' And yet he continued to respond to every word of the experimenter and obeyed to the end."

If this kind of obedience could be obtained with a lab coat and a clipboard by an authority figure who has been known for only a few minutes, how much more would the trappings of military authority and months of bonding accomplish?

Grossman went on to discuss the ways in which a commanding officer's presence and authority can impel his troops to make kills which they would not otherwise make, but I veered off onto a (hardly original) tangent of my own and got thinking about the many ways in which Milgram's research explains the evil that was Hitler's Germany, that was Stalin's Russia, that was Pol Pot's Cambodia. I've always marvelled at the sheer compliance of the masses in such cases, and wondered even more at the ordinary grunts who actually committed most the atrocities. How could they?

Grossman's thesis is that most ordinary human beings have an inborn and very powerful resistance to killing other humans, and that it takes certain extraordinary circumstances before this resistance is broken down enough to enable one ordinary person to kill another at close quarters. You would think that with such a thesis, the book would be encouraging for the future -- but it's actually very bleak indeed, especially in light of Milgram's research.

If the government chooses to misuse and abuse its powers, what does Milgram's research say the ordinary grunt will do in response? Will he obey unlawful orders? Will ordinary citizens comply and cooperate with men in uniform? I see no reason to believe they will not.

Worse than that, one of the recurring themes in literature (at least in the literature I read) is the beauty and power of taking responsibility for one's own actions and one's own choices. From Voltaire to Gandhi, from MLK to Andrew Jackson to e.e. cummings, from Emerson to Thoreau to Swift to Solzhenitzen, from Kepler to Abraham Lincoln to Spurgeon to Mark Twain to Bertrand Russell and Orson Scott Card, it seems to me that nearly every author who ever set pen to paper and nearly ever orator who ever mounted the podium has lauded the value and virtue of nonconformity.

And yet, it suddenly occurred to me that the very prevalence of these glowing words is pretty darn depressing. You don't, after all, often encounter people lauding the commonplace. Nor is a soldier decorated for doing merely what is expected of him. Such laurels are for those who do the extraordinary ... which leads me to the depressing (but again, hardly original) conclusion that if-and-when, it'll be the majority against a tiny minority; and of that minority, a predictably large number will lose their zeal when faced with nothing more than the disapprobation of the crowd.

For all those reasons, if the order to round up guns is ever given, foot soldiers who refuse to obey it are going to be few and far between.

And let's talk about common gun owners. What will ordinary gun owners do? Looking at what gun owners are by and large doing right now, I see no real reason for optimism.

A lot of gun owners don't even vote, for apathy. Or because they think it "won't make any difference."

Sometimes they even vote against freedom, because they want to demonstrate that they aren't "one issue voters," or because the legislation suggested is just a "common sense safety measure" and the voter thinks it "won't affect me."

Some gun owners tell other gun owners not to vote for the best, most RKBA candidate -- because the best candidate has "no chance of winning." Well, duh. If all the people who really agree with the best candidate, waste their votes on someone else instead, the best ones never will have a chance.

Gun owners won't even show up at political protests to carry signs, or write to their local papers, for fear of "getting on a list somewhere."

They won't put RKBA bumper stickers on their cars, unless the sticker is so subtle that no one but a fellow gunnie would get it anyway -- for fear of "getting a window smashed or something."

Whenever one of our fellow gun owners has a run in with the law, gun owners are quick to denounce the gun owner, and support the unjust law. They do this to show that gun owners are "really law abiding" ... even when the law itself is unjust and wrong.

But it's okay. In the soi-distant future, when the goon squads are coming door-to-door to gather up guns, suddenly all the gun owners in America will grow a set of balls twice as big as the ones they had before.

Unfortunately, two times zero is still zero.

pax

The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails. -- William Arthur Ward
 
Pax, the milgram experiment is one of those that I was refering to in my original post. It proves that most people realy are sheep, and that they are more than likely to respond to a strong shepard, even if led in a direction they don't want to go. Not many people are willing to stand up for what is right, and even in this age that pretends to value individualism, conformity is stilll strongly ingrained. People are told it is better to aqueice (sp) than to fight. (eg. people are told it is better to just give a robber your rmoney rather than resist). But my original question was directed towards the LEO/ military types and what they think about the subject. Not entirely encouraging, but the division geographically makes me wonder if another "War between the States" wouln't be a likely outcome, with the various "Peoples republics" against those freedom loveing heartland states. Either way, it is a scary thing to even think about....
 
Pax, that's extremely interesting. Too bad it makes a lot of sense...it really is the way you describe it. I have repeatedly seen examples over and over again myself.

People need to stop following and start Thinking.
 
Pax:

On a list?

I'm sure I'm on several, and I don't care one wit. I mean my THR handle is the same as the one on my birth certificate, I don't care who knows who I am. Heck the stack of 4473's around local gun shops with my name is big enough. I've got the capital switchboard on speed dial at work, write letters at least 2X per month(with at least 50 duplicates handed out and mailed by family/friends), vote every election(local, county, state and federal), and keep a list of congressmembers adresses on my fridge.

Unlike other posters who want to cry after reading you post(which is most likely very true), I'm past that now. No more crying, or being worried sick. I resolved myself to the fact that it will happen. And if it does during my lifetime, I know my course of action.

I'll no longer sit and sadly lament that my fellow countrymen are doing nothing. I convert, or at least plant a seed every chance I get, and on occasion my donations to NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, JPFO, etc., have put me in a pinch, but I'm doing what I can every day.

If and when the SHTF, I will go down fighting, I won't give an inch, 'cause at that point I've got nothing left to lose
 
A strong leader

Mountaindrew wrote that sheep follow a shepherd. True.

It works both ways, though.

If enough men like our own Ben Shepherd who wrote: " there will be a pile of brass around me if I get the slightest chance at resisting "
who have the GRANITE ONES to do it
come foward, they will serve as catalysts for other resisters.

Oppressors hate martyrs for that reason- you can't kill 'em if they're already dead.

Guys like that, like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ, and other people who really shake up the status quo KNOW they will likely die for it. That's why these types are so honored by the rest of us.

So who's it gonna be?
C-
 
Here ! Here !

I am an LEO although I am just a reserve. For you yanks that dont know what that means, it means that I am armed and have all the full powers of an LEO when I'm on duty.I can arrest you, ticket you and drive around in a fast car with blue lights. You'd never know I was not a fulltimer because we wear the same uniforms,attend the same training and have the same supervisors. Fact of the matter is, although I enjoy playing cop, my yearly paycheck in my real job is roughly 4 times higher than that of the highest paid LEO, in my case the Sherrif. We have 30 fulltimers and 20 reserves.

With that being said...

I can personally vouch for everyone in my small department. I am not naieve enough to beleive that all cops are that way. While I am fortunate to be in a dept. where the majority, including the sheriff, are very pro-gun, just 70 miles to the south of me in a small city called Little Rock there are some rabidly antyigun cops and politicians. You may have heard of one of the local scuzballs, his name was Bill Clinton. His still shows up occasionaly..

I also know that this is pretty much a rural thing. While we here in Arkansas are cosndiered primitive by many standards, most of us still value our freedoms and we cherish them. While the big citys slickers might care less if it came down to it, I can testify that it would be a bit different in the rural areas.

Understand this...
If (or when) it ever comes down to confinscating guns, I will refuse to particpate in that activity. Heck, I may even go to your house and tell you that Im here to get your guns. If you are stupid enough to give them to me, I guarantee you that I will pass them out to people with enough balls to use them against those that would take them by force.

If you refuse, I will say have a great day and move on.

I feel that operating in this capacity might be of more use than just
refusing and quitting. In short, those that refuse to give up their guns will find a friend in me.

Rest assured, I am not the only one that feels this way.

I have somethign to say about this statment...
I have to tell you, the LEOs I know will be the first ones digging positions.[I/]

If the time comes for digging, dont dig deep. Not long after, the time to use them will be at hand.

Heck...I may be amongst the first to get whacked. If I do, it wont be because Im taking guns by force.

:scrutiny:
 
LEO's are not responding to this thread because they actually have to pass a psychological exam indicating that they are relatively stable before being hired.
 
Preacherman,

I think a lot would depend on where you live. Here in the South, I'm sure most LEO's and Feds (including me) would do something like call you and say "I'm going to be there in two hours - I have to check that you don't have any guns in your possession. Is that OK with you?" I'm sure that when I arrived to inspect, I wouldn't find any guns - right? :D

Once you've lived in the South a little longer, you'll realize that that hypothetical day would be a much better day to call in sick than to make any phone calls. :uhoh:
 
If the time comes for digging, dont dig deep. Not long after, the time to use them will be at hand.

Watchman, I think you might have misunderstood what I meant when I said "digging positions." ;)

Just for clarity:

1. Through supervision, evaluation and on the spot corrections, ensure that the construction of the individual fighting position generally follows the sequence below. See the tank Construct individual Fighting, Position, task number 071-326-5703, STP 21-1-SMCT.

2. Assign the location of the position and the sector of fire. The soldier constructing the position should emplace sector of fire stakes.

3. Ensure your soldiers partially clear fields of fire within their sector and dig a hasty hole for minimum protection, begin careful not to destroy natural camouflage around their positions. They should save sod, grass clumps, etc, for use as camouflage later.

4. Next ensure your soldiers dig a hole which is armpit deep. If they have a natural frontal parapet, the dirt from the hole should be carried away and camouflage, if not, it should be used to make a frontal parapet.

5. They can now complete clearing fields of fire, clearing only what is absolutely necessary. Ensure that the soldier get into the firing positions and check their fields of fire.

6. The soldiers should next camouflage their positions using available materials (sod, grass clumps, foliage, etc) blending the position with the surrounding area. The camouflage should be checked from about 35 meters to the front;if the position can be spotted easily, more camouflage work is needed.

7. After all of the above have been accomplished satisfactorily, the soldier should construct overhead cover. They should use longs and planks, 4 to 6 inches thick, that will support at lease 6 or 8 inches of dirt (logs and dirt should total 12 inches), and dig a cave-like area big enough to get under.

8. Upon completion of the overhead cover, the soldier should begin to improve their positions. Items to check for include generate trench, drainage trench, elbow holes, night firing stakes, range cards and camouflage.
 
I am "one of those" who would have much to lose. I have a wife, and three children.

Would I resist? Would I fight?

Yes.

I would tell my wife not to lie, she would say " Yes my husband owns guns. Yes my husband owns ammunition. When this law was passed, he kissed me, and he kissed his children, told us he loved us. Then he took his guns and his ammunition, and he left. He also said to tell you, if he's not looking at you now, he will see you soon."

The government that would try this, is the same one that spent well over a million dollars training me to pick my own battlegrounds.

If it came to this it would be a sad day indeed.

Some would say "From my cold dead hands"... I rather like " I will not go quietly into the night".
 
Er, uh, has anybody considered the "takings clause" of the Fifth Amendment?

To mandate surrender to the government of one's personal property, I'd think that they'd be in the arena of eminent domain. That means they gotta pay you. That means you can get a jury to set the fair market value.

At one time it was publicized that the EvilBlackRifle population of California was some 350,000; only some 30,000 or so were registered. Now, registration is a California thing. Those guns aren't illegal insofar as present federal law. If a federal law is passed requiring surrender, and the juries agree with the present values in the open market, a serious question arises: Whence cometh the money? You're looking at a couple of hundred million or more, just in California, just for EBRs.

Make sure you're in the jury pool in your home county. Snuggle up to the county clerk, if need be. That's part of political self-defense. Lay some lawyer money aside, pooling resources with folks who agree with you--and do it before the need, not after.

The antis who have succeeded have done it via the political process. They care enought to get involved--which is today's Point to Ponder.

Art
 
Most people would turn their guns in.
I doubt it. I believe there would be non-compliance on a large scale (which would be a good thing).

But as mentioned by others, the Marxists have learned that “big steps†(such as outright confiscation) are virtually impossible to achieve. They’ve learned incrementalism is a much better strategy.

At some point each of us is going to have to draw our line in the sand. I’ve already drawn mine. Have you?
 
The problem is they don't take your guns. They don't ban your guns. They ban production of them, and when your old weapons (that can't be bought again) go down, you're left with fewer and fewer guns. Now, if people were faced with the situation of keeping their guns, that'd be one thing. But they're faced with the situation of having to buy illegal guns, and that's another. There's a difference between "I'm keeping my rifle no matter what!" and "I'm going out to buy a rifle no matter what!". It just doesn't have that rebellion thing to it, if you know what I mean.
 
I am "one of those" who would have much to lose. I have a wife, and three children.
Me too.

Would I resist? Would I fight?

Yes.

I would tell my wife not to lie, she would say, "Yes my husband owns guns. Yes my husband owns ammunition. When this law was passed, he kissed me, and he kissed his children, told us he loved us. Then he took his guns and his ammunition, and he left. He also said to tell you, if he's not looking at you now, he will see you soon."
I like your spirit, oneslowgun. And like you, I am also a fighter. But there’s a “rule†when it comes to fighting for your freedom: If you must leave your family for an indefinite period of time, do not leave them unprotected!! Make sure they’re safe! If your wife and children are not safe on their own, they should be with family members.

If (God forbid) I am ever in a situation where I must fight for liberty with other freedom fighters, I will ask the following question to each: “Is your family safe and secure?†If I find out they simply walked away from their family and left them in a vulnerable state, I will insist they immediately go back and correct the situation. Only after making their family safe & secure will they be allowed to rejoin.
 
I would imagine there would be a much higher percentage of urban/suburban cops that would walk in step to such an order than the more rural counterparts. The crew that I worked with when I was a badge would likely whine about it and try their best not to enforce such a mandate.
 
For those who think they have too much to lose if they did not go along with a forced gun grab............once the government has deteriorated your rights to that point you have nothing left to lose.

I can bluntly say if it ever comes to me having to make a choice I'm going down resisting. Whatever happens at that point happens and I am willing to accept the outcome.
 
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