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LAPD shoots up a truck...right to shoot back?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Habeed, Feb 8, 2013.

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  1. Habeed

    Habeed member

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    Apparently, according to the news, LAPD officers opened fire without warning on a blue Toyota tundra that resembled, in their minds, the grey Nissan pickup that Jordan Dorner was thought to be driving.

    Somehow, miraculously, they did not kill the 2 women in the truck, despite firing over 30 rounds. Anyways, hypothetically, if one of the occupants of the truck had a CHL, did they have the legal right to shoot back? Obviously, that would only escalate the situation, but hypothetically, suppose that several video cameras observed the crime from all angles. (so the cops can't lie about what they did)

    And, the CHL owner was a crack shot and had the right type of weapon, and he took down the cops. Legal?
     
  2. Creature

    Creature Member

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    I dont see this thread lasting very long...
     
  3. murphys_law

    murphys_law Member

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    I think the right is there, but don't think it would have helped the situation...
     
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Technically, yes you can resist an unlawful arrest. But as a practical matter they'll kill you for it long before it reaches any court. And the question of whether it's lawful or unlawful can be very complex. So in the unlikely event of survival you had better have guessed right.
     
  5. HankR

    HankR Member

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    Based on the way this thread went this morning, my guess is it's not [strike]even legal[/strike] kosher to discuss this on THR...
     
  6. Bovice

    Bovice Member

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    I think this is a valid thread for THR.

    It doesn't matter who is shooting at you. If you're on a Sunday afternoon drive and suddenly you're being shot at, there's no reason why you can't shoot back. Just because they are police does not allow them to shoot at any vehicle they want. If they attempted to pull over the truck and the driver ignored them, that's murkier water. Still, I don't know of any department policies to resort to gunfire first thing in a pursuit.

    The truth of it would probably be that the rest of the town and much of the department would think you're a cop killer, and as someone stated, they'll try to kill you for it. Or, your trial would be so biased, you never had a chance.
     
  7. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    No law forces you (or can force you) to endure violence from anyone, ever. You DO have the right (generally recognized by law, even in cases of law enforcement) to use force to stop ANYONE from attacking you -- so long as you are not violating the law yourself.

    There are obvious problems that arise when that attacker is a sworn officer, especially acting under what s/he believes to be their duty to apprehend a law-breaker. There is also a difference between trying to preserve your life against deadly force and resisting arrest.

    True "shoot to kill" actions by the police, where there is no attempt to arrest, halt, discern, investigate, verify, etc. are very rare. The actions of the various law officers involved in the wounding of innocent folks during this manhunt are clearly errors and will be heavily investigated, and certainly the outcomes of such investigations are far beyond our scope here.
     
  8. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

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    Worst case of Profiling ever......what if there were kids in that car too ?
    Rubber gun squad and Firing is in order......IMO.
    2 women shot, the back of the truck riddled with holes......NG.

    LAWYERS.............take over.
     
  9. Spammy_H

    Spammy_H Member

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    Anybody have a link to this?
     
  10. zmoore1991

    zmoore1991 Member

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    What I was taught in my criminal law course is that you ALWAYS have a right to defend yourself from unwarranted violence (even against officers, if they are not justified in their use of physical force toward you), but you NEVER have the right to resist arrest, even when it is "unlawful." Pretty sure there was a SC case about resisting unlawful arrest, but I cannot remember for sure.
    As far as the scare that is going on in LA right now, I think that any officer death, even in a case where the LEOs started the gunfight and you were simply defending yourself from unwarranted lethal force, would be a very bad thing for you as a defendant in that trial.
     
  11. Habeed

    Habeed member

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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-people_n_2638701.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

    Apparently, the cops are so jumpy about one man out to get them that they have shot up two different trucks. I don't see how in either case they gave the occupant of the vehicle a chance to surrender. Nor did they even verify it was the same kind of truck that Dorner supposedly was driving.

    And, Zmore : the real problem with such a trial is that the LAPD officers who perpetuated the crime would probably state that you fired first, and they announced they were cops before opening fire. Pretty much the only way you would win is if there was a video recording showing otherwise.
     
  12. niner4tango

    niner4tango Member

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  13. SHR970

    SHR970 Member

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    Did someone ask for a link????

    Local Paper

    I live within 3 miles of both shootings....one of my closest friends lives within 3 blocks of both incidents.

    For the record, Los Angeles PD are just a bit out of their jurisdiction being in Redondo Beach and Torrance. The "Torrance" incident is borderline Redondo Beach territory. Both incidents failed to meet any accepted practices of "Felony Stop" in Los Angeles County on every level.

    Edit: To the OP's question.....in this particular case; if you came out of the encounter alive you will almost certainly end up in prison. In this part of the country it is HIGHLY unlikely that you would have one of the few CCW permits. CCW a handgun without a permit is a wobbler misdemeanor / felony; the DA's office would almost certainly apply the used in a crime standard to make it a felony charge out the gate. Add attempted murder / murder 2 with special circumstances (police officer) and you are in for an expensive world of hurt. And that is IF you survive encounter #2 with the next officer(s) that come for you due to your defending yourself from the original officers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  14. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    Hey, now maybe police officers get it. Being fearful for your life and not being protected by a black uniform and badge.

    If it was you or me that shot up a random vehicle we'd be in prison. Here's basically what the public gets when a police officer does something stupid:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlIRsFf9aJc
     
  15. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I agree, I would like to see the lawyers make this one hurt.
     
  16. SHR970

    SHR970 Member

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    The problem is that we the taxpayers end up paying for it from the costs of litigation against the cities to the awards payed out to the victims.

    If it were you or I we would be facing numerous charges starting with attempted murder. Let the lawyers start there. Both incidents clearly come under the heading of "Bad Shoot". Both vehicles are the wrong make / model /color. Two people in a vehicle where they are looking for a solo actor? Shooting at / targeting the potential hostage is poor form at best.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  17. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    An example should be made of every. single. officer. that fired a shot at either vehicle. This should not be tolerated by anyone, especially citizens. "Serve and protect"? Not in the slightest.

    It really is unimaginable that such a blatant disregard for human life was shown. What, now that someone is after their families it is different? What about those of us that don't wear a badge who "shouldn't" have guns?...
     
  18. blarby

    blarby Member

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    the irony here being the alleged misuse of force by the LAPD being the strongest catalyst for dorners rampage.....
     
  19. gripper

    gripper Member

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    Anyone shooting at me had better hit me right in the 10 ring up front. Cop, or not; if it's on, it's on.
     
  20. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Yes, it hits the taxpayers. But the administration needs to be conditioned to the fact that their training must err on the side of respecting people's rights, or the pain will continue.
     
  21. Arp32

    Arp32 Member

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    No matter what, shooting back at the police is not going to end well for anyone.

    It's like not yielding to a red light runner: if you end up dead, does it matter that you had the right of way?

    Luckily the cops in question were crack shots. Poor woman.
     
  22. SHR970

    SHR970 Member

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    I disagree..they are conditioned to "That's the cost of doing business"
    We need the Officers to be conditioned to err on the side of respecting peoples rights. In a case such as this, Prison Time sends a loud message that extrajudicial killings will not be tolerated.
     
  23. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Let's do both.
     
  24. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    Morally and Ethically? Yes.

    Legally? Well, in a nation where it was 'legal' to deny basic human rights to the majority of citizens [ women of all color, blacks, etc. ].
     
  25. clutch

    clutch Member

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    In a case like this, take everything the officers have or have coming to them. Make them know that bad actions will take everything they have.
     
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