Law School question

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medic_guns said:
An attorney I spoke with advised me to get a JD anywhere I could because it will not really matter, as I am thinking of working for myself representing clients in tax matters before the IRS and tax court. He also said that all I needed to do was get enough to pass the bar.
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If you have at least 200k saved up, then yes you might be able to hang your shingle and make a go of it as a tax attorney. However, most real life tax attorneys have worked at firms and either have a CPA or an LLM in tax law. It's one of the most complex areas of law, so it's not a bad idea to operate in a firm for at least five years. Which means you still need to get hired somewhere.
 
Lots of good advice so far. I would say, go to law school in a region you will be comfortable in, ie if you hate big cities, find a school in a smaller community. You don't won't to be miserable for 3 or 4 years.
Also keep your options open, once you get to law school, you might find out you really enjoy certain areas of the law you never considered.
 
As far as the classes themselves, with few exceptions the exams are the key. Even in very "socratic" classes, participation only plays a minor role in your actual bottom-line grade. So focus your energy on the exam and don't get distracted trying to prep for the big mean prof's trick questions. Let him trick you, let him humiliate you. As long as you are prepared to offer some kind of answer being tricked won't hurt your grade--just your ego.

Many students find outlines helpful, though IMHO the most useful outlines are the ones you prepare yourself, not the ones you buy or borrow from some other student. I preferred making a kind of lean "scrib sheet" outline that included little mnemonic clues only I could understand. But then again I also wrapped two rubber bands around my head and one around my right ankle during exams to keep my chi in alignment.

The big weakness many from a hard science or engineering background have is inexperience with long, written essay answers to questions. Law school exams tend to feature pithy hypothetical questions to which you must write long essay aswers. Multiple choice exams are less common, though they may be more or less frequent depending on which school you go to. 1L's with a background in the liberal arts tend to be more familiar with these kinds of tests than others.
 
One of the biggest misconceptions I had before attending law school was thinking that myself and all of my classmates would have six figure jobs just waiting for us after graduation. That was hardly the case. I know many classmates who would have been better off (financially speaking) had they not forgone their already established careers to attend law school. I also remember being a summer associate at a Big Law law firm and thinking of how inadequate my background was when the majority of my fellow want-to-be lawyers summer associated attended first tier law schools like Harvard, Yale, Penn, Duke, Michigan, etc. Which brings me to my sad but true realization about law school: regardless of how good of a practitioner you may actually become, everything, at least in the beginning, is predicated on what school you attend and how you do once you get in.

So, if you have already decided that you want to work at one of the Big Law law firms (which have offices in just about every major city in the United States and Europe) and make six figures the moment you graduate, then the most important thing for you to do is get in to the best law school that you can. U.S. News and World Report ranks law schools and the higher the ranking of the school you attend, the more doors are opened for you. Once in said law school your next step is get on law review and then graduate in the top ten of your class. If you choose this route, I would go full-time as you will likely be spending a lot of time in the library (at least during the first year).

If, on the other hand, you have already decided that you are not interested in Big Law life and would rather become a sole practitioner, work for a small firm, do plaintiff's work, etc. then I would consider going part-time and managing your law school debt. When I graduated the average debt was somewhere in the neighborhood of $70,000 and I imagine that it has gone up since then. If that is the case, I would attend a school in the city where you are most likely to practice as your classmates will become an excellent source of work.

Last, don't bother watching the Paper Chase. Everyone will tell you that it is it is the quintessential movie about law school. It wasn't. Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.
 
Cindog said:
So, if you have already decided that you want to work at one of the Big Law law firms (which have offices in just about every major city in the United States and Europe) and make six figures the moment you graduate, then the most important thing for you to do is get in to the best law school that you can.
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I can't disagree with that statement strongly enough. I went to one of those so-called "top" law schools (Michigan, which is usually ranked in the top 5). I graduated right about the middle of my class. Those in the top 25% had no trouble finding jobs. Those of us in the middle 50% had to work at it, and didn't always have many decent options. Those in the bottom 25% had a really hard time finding decent jobs. That's a lot of people, as my class had something like 350 people in it.

In my experience, it is far better that you finish near the top of your class, whatever the law school, than that you go to a top law school. Sure, graduating in the top 10% of a top 10 law school is better than graduating in the top 10% of a middle tier law school, but I still think you're better off graduating top 10% from a middle tier school than graduating mid-pack or worse from a "top" school.

Most hiring committees know what I know about law school -- it's mainly credentials that get you into a school. Your grades in school are a reflection of your talent and work ethic. They count for a lot more than the name on the diploma.
 
The better the law school, the bigger the top cut will be. I went to a 2nd tier school and only the top 15% were really able to get good positions right out of school. In a top tier school the top 25% or 30% may be in a similar position. But certainly that bottom half is *ALWAYS* going to have a tough time.
 
Father Knows Best,

Believe me, I know exactly what you are saying as I was in the top 10 of my class but at a third tier school and I was able to get a job in a Big Law law firm. Unfortunately though, I think those days are gone and I would much rather go to one of the elite schools like you did and take a shot at Big Law (or any other job for that matter) than do what I did. Of course, I wasn't nearly smart enough to get in to your alma mater or any other top tier school for that matter. And if you thought your bottom 25% had a hard time getting a job, you can just imagine what my school's bottom 25% are doing. Regardless, if you are using law school as a tool to increase your earning capacity, no matter where you go, graduate in the top ten to ensure your best odds. If not, pick a school, enjoy the journey, and you might just learn a few things along the way.
 
I'm currently a 2L. I go to school full time and work part-time. Between work and loans, I can cover some expenses and keep my debt at a manageable level. My school is probably not considered "elite" by most, but it is accredited, and that's all that matters. I'm not in anything prestigious like law review, nor am I highly ranked. In fact, in a class of about 230 people, I wasn't in the top 200. Yet, I've got a clerkship I'm happy with and I appear to be headed for a job I'll probably be happy with, too. I've had a lot of people give me advice for landing that dream job, but that dream job is usually more their dream than mine. I won't be making the big $$$ some of the other fat cats in my class probably will, but I also won't be spending my Saturdays and Sundays in the office.

My only advice is this: take everyone's advice with a grain of salt. Your obviously a sharp fellow, or you wouldn't be where you are today. Sharp enough to trust your own judgment.
 
I strongly advise AGAINST trying to work part time to save money. Focus all your energy on getting top grades. Maybe you won't want the high paying jobs, but your law school ranking will stay with you for the rest of your career. It's nice to have it if you need to make a change later on. I don't want to scare you with stories of JD's who can't pass the bar and can't get a job as a lawyer. But trust me it happens a lot more than the school's career services office is ever going to admit.

In the old days, they used to kick the bottom half out after the first year. It was brutal and cruel. Nowadays they let you linger till the end, and bill you a vast sum for it, knowing full well the JD you get at the end is worthelss paper.

My mean, nasty advice is to drop out if you're not in the top half after the first semester.
 
You seem to have things in hand, NT. I just wouldn't advise an incoming 1L to try to follow your path. I've seen too many fail badly.
 
But isnt the half of the class youre in determined by the quality of the class more than the quality of the individual? If everyone in a class is qualified to be a lawyer, doesnt that mean you are unfairly disqualifying a ton of potentially excellent lawyers? Or in any given class, do they accidentally admit a moron for every person who is cut out to be a lawyer?

Considering how selective admission to law school is, I can't imagine that more than 10-20 percent of the admitted students at a decent school are unqualified to practice.

Also, what if you havent written with a pen in 20 years? My hands were killing me after I wrote the LSAT essay and it looked like chicken scratch. It is going to suck if all the law exams are long essays.

edit: Ok, lets start with 2 assumptions:
1) admissions policies result in a class in which the top 80 percent can pass the bar and probably practice law
2) only the top 50 percent or a given class are allowed to practice law
3) all students are committed to succeeding and have the ability to do so
Conclusion:
There are criteria used to separate students into low and high rankings that have nothing to do with ones likely ability to be an effective lawyer.
Question:
How is ranking accomplished?
 
I'm not advising people to follow my path, either. I'm just pointing out that not being tops in the class is not the end of the world.


Beerslurpy, here's some stats for you from my law school:

About 1,700 people applied to get into the law school. Of those, 245 were accepted. So much of the weeding out process takes place before the first day of classes ever start. Very few are lost to grades or drop out, and 98% are practicing law within 6 months of graduation. Assuming it's the bottom 2% that aren't, that still leaves 48% with jobs that were in the bottom half of the class.

First time bar passage for the school is somewhere over 90%. This last year, it was the highest in the state.
 
North Texan said:
About 1,700 people applied to get into the law school. Of those, 245 were accepted. .
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I always find this funny, please don't take offense. Lets say all prospective law students apply to 5 schools, and each school accepts only 20% of applicants. That means that 100 percent who apply eventually get accepted to a law school of their choice, (maybe not the first choice though).
 
beerslurpy said:
But isnt the half of the class youre in determined by the quality of the class more than the quality of the individual? If everyone in a class is qualified to be a lawyer, doesnt that mean you are unfairly disqualifying a ton of potentially excellent lawyers? Or in any given class, do they accidentally admit a moron for every person who is cut out to be a lawyer?
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Oh, certainly. That's where Franz Kafka comes into play. It's a mean, brutal system and I personally saw it destroy many close friends of mine.

Also, what if you havent written with a pen in 20 years? My hands were killing me after I wrote the LSAT essay and it looked like chicken scratch. It is going to suck if all the law exams are long essays.
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Some schools are letting people type their essays, but the potential for abuse has kept most schools from allowing computers to be used, at least AFAIK. You should practice writing longhand. I developed a massive callus on my middle finger from the pressure of the pen.

How is ranking accomplished?
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Straight GPA pulled over a curve.

Keep in mind that the bar exam is a completely different issue. It's controlled by a state agency and has nothing to do with any law school. Some states are easy, some are really brutal. The only factor the bar plays during law school is to push students into bar-oriented courses rather than the easier theoretical courses.
 
Beerslurpy,

This all may sound like a buch of mumbo jumbo now, but I guarantee that after your first semester of law school everything discussed in this thread will become abundantly clear to you. And you are right, being a good lawyer has nothing to do with how you do in law school or whether you pass the bar by 50 points or 1 point. My only point in brining up class rankings and school rankings is for those of who may read this thread and equate getting a JD with instant wealth as that is simply not the case. In the end, it's all up to you. Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
 
Lots of good advice here from different viewpoints. I'd add (for prospective patent lawyers):
1) Check uspto.gov to make sure you're qualified to take the patent bar.
2) If so, register for it NOW.
3) Which school algorithm: a) If you can get into HY or S, do it at all costs. b) If you're sure about patent law, go to a school with a good patent program - George Mason is one, GW another. c) If you're going full-time, try to find a school with some national recognition - state law schools are often a good choice. d) Part-time will work too, especially if you can work as a patent agent while you're doing it.
4) Time: First year grades are extremely important, as they determine law review etc. Consider borrowing for first year only, and then going parttime.
5) Patent law is a fine area to get into, but you aren't very likely to make $150K in your first job.

PM me if you want more.
 
beerslurpy said:
I got 96th percentile on the LSAT and I'm applying to law schools now. I am pretty sure I want to do trial law. Beyond that I am leaning slightly towards patent or technology law since I am already an engineer. Obviously I have a few years to decide what I specialize in. Also, I have been out of school for about 8 years and I am a software engineer.

Also, full time or part time? Full time will require me to eat ramen and possibly sell the house. Part time will put a strain on my time, no more posting on the interweb and no clerking during the off season. But I will have a lot more money if I do part time because I will be working.

My main worry with doing full time or going to *choke* california would be what to do with the guns and the car. My relatives (including inlaws) live in NY (NYC), CA (LA), IL (chicago), MA and the UK (yes, that country). It is a miracle I turned out like I did. Or maybe it isnt, actually.

Any suggestions? Lawyers? Anyone? Bueller?
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Patent law is my brother's field. He does very well with it. He also was an engineer first, working on the F-14's weapons systems. When Grumman Aerospace went under, he went to law school. That sounds like a natural course for you as well. If you scored that well on the LSAT you will not have much difficulty in law school. Part time sounds to me like a good option, if you cannot afford full time. Good luck, and congratulations for scoring so well on the LSAT.

PS, I imagine that you wish to leave engineering because of the lower wages that this field is bringing in lately. This is due, of course, to the various international "free-trade" agreements that we've been signing on to lately. Isn't one-worldism wonderful? Thanks Republicans.
 
1. If at all possible, try for a law school in state. out of state tuition, or private school tuition will be absolutely nothing but a burden on you later with law loans. i got a great education at a private law school, but owe $116,000. met my wife there. She owes $125,000. we now have 8 mo. old quadruplets, so i am paying both monthly student loan bills. even just paying one is a killer on a good salary.

2. Patent/IP work is good work and pretty specialized. If you go this route you'll probably need to take the patent bar.

3. If you end up in Birmingham, AL. for school, or even after, let me know.
always looking for a shooting buddy. My firm is generally expanding our IP group, so 3-4 years from now there could be an opportunity.

4. get on law review or at least some type of journal.

5. bust your balls and get good grades and a good class rank. GPA and class rank are what determines who gets on-campus interviews.

6. feel free to PM me if you have other questions on law school or the practice of law.
 
I would likely expect that the top firms look to hire the top graduates in thier class due to the fact they know that to be a top 10%, you had to put in 60-90 hours a week to accomplish that feat. They want people who can put in 60-90 billable hours a week once out. I personally have NO ambition to work 60-90 hours a week making someone else rich.

I'll take my part-time program I am enrolled in now, and continue living my life on my own terms.
 
I will go on record as being the Bitter Lawyer. Most lawyers are miserable. Law firm life sucks unless you are a grind with no spouse, kids, or life.

Go to pharmacy school instead; you'll thank me later ;)
 
2A schools

So, keeping in mind that my law interests may change, what schools have the best programs for RKBA issues? It's the main reason I want to go to Law school. I've heard good things about Utah State U.
 
You guys thinking that he's going to have his choice of law schools with a 3.0 and 167 must not have been too active in applying to law schools lately. 162 is the University of GA's average LSAT score. The average GPA is pretty close to 4.0.

Get in the best school you can in an area where you might want to practice. Good luck.

Son of a local friend of mine made a perfect score on the LSAT a few years back. He'd turned down Yale undergrad prior to that, in favor of UGA. With his 4.0 and perfect LSAT, he was offered a full ride at Harvard; checked out Harvard, didn't like it and returned to UGA for law school.

Guy's going to inherit about $20M; however, he's making several hundred thousand annually on his own, practicing tax law.
 
Last year, I made the same leap you are now contemplating and left my comfortable and secure middle management job (with comfortable and secure salary) and applied to law school.

In fact, our profiles are somewhat similar except I had been out of school about 12 years, had a 163 LSAT and a 2.4 undergrad GPA (and a non-science major, though the major drag on that GPA was my attempt to combine bar-hopping with a aeronautical engineering major).

My experience has been as follows:

1) Go full time. Your first-year grades are some of the most important because most of the interviewing process takes place in the second year and your first year grades are all they see. Investing your full attention on the first year is important.

2) My low undergrad GPA did play a part in my not getting accepted to several top 15 schools. However, every school where I followed up on my application by keeping in contact with the admissions officials and made a point to emphasize my post-college resume (which was decent) accepted me.

3) You have a medium-sized elephant to eat so take it a bite at a time. Be aware of how the choices you make now may limit future options; but beyond that need for general awareness, concentrate on the applications process before worrying about your first-year grades, then worry about your first year grades before you sweat clerkships and networking, etc.

So far, I have really enjoyed the experience and am looking forward to working in a field that I actually enjoy.
 
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