Lead hardness vs powder load vs leading?

[gonoles_1980]

Is the following correct.

Use softer lead with lighter loads to avoid leading.
Use harder lead with stiffer loads to avoid leading?

 

[res45]

Leading can be caused by many issues not just how hard or how soft an alloy is vs. the velocity/load pressure the bullet is fired at. Although this article is written towards handguns the same principles apply to rifle loads as well. Cover you bases and leading never has to be an issue.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

 

[USSR]

More leading is caused by too small diameter bullets and hard, waxy lube than a bullet being too hard/soft.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

In general, yes, but that said, USSR is correct.

A couple of old posts:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6460505&postcount=11

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6232577&postcount=7

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9076640&postcount=22

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9878613&postcount=22

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6460508&postcount=12

 

[mdi]

More important than BHN of a bullet is the bullet to gun fit. A hard bullet that is too small will lead. A soft bullet that is too small will lead.

FWIW; I had no idea what the BHN of my alloy was, mostly wheel weight alloy, for the first 15 years of my bullet casting. I shot 2 Magnums, .44 and .357, with low to Magnum loads with very little leading, but the bullets were sized to fit each gun they were used in..

 

[gonoles_1980]

I have a lot of reading ahead (thanks ).

I was asking because I only have control over the weight of the powder load and the BHN of the bullet based on the brand. I get my bullets from Speer or xTreme. Speer is around 12BTN and xTreme 18BHN for the hard cast (15 for the Cowboy loads).

Missouri Bullets have a good page on this subject.
Using the formula from https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

I can estimate the CUP linearly (I know it's not, but that's the best I think I can do).

For example, I have very little leading on my 38spl using the Speer 158gr LSWCHP, I use 3.2gr of Bullseye. I run it through the forumla in the link above and get BHN of 12.11, which is about the BHN of the Speer bullets. (the first article made me think of this).

I do have chore boy, based on other's recommendations.

I would like to understand more about gas checks.

I tried it for my 357mag subbie, same bullet at 4.5gr Bullseye, and I get leading. Now the formula says I should use 17.97 BTN, which means I should be using the xtreme 158gr LSWC that I have.

I will switch (I keep forgetting to change them out), I will report back on the results.

Update: I use to fire 25 lead rounds and 25 copper plated rounds, didn't notice the leading as bad. Now I fire only lead rounds and leave the copper plate for my Valquero Bisley 357.

 

[GBExpat]

... I do have choir boy, based on other's recommendations. ...

Have a magnet with you when you buy Chore Boy (or the like).

Some of these products are now "copper" coated/colored steel rather than copper.

 

[USSR]

gonoles_1980,

Where to start? First, it is "BHN", not "BTN". Second, step away from that Missouri Bullets so-called formula. This formula has no basis in reality. It is merely something designed to justify the too hard bullets made by commercial bullet manufacturers. You don't need or want bullets that hard. Elmer Keith used cast bullets with a BHN of 11 for the .44 Magnum without leading.

I have very little leading on my 38spl using the Speer 158gr LSWCHP, I use 3.2gr of Bullseye. I run it through the forumla in the link above and get BTN of 12.11, which is about the BTN of the Speer bullets.

There is no way your Speer 158gr LSWCHP has a BHN of 12. It is a swaged bullet with a BHN of about 7 or 8.

I tried it for my 357mag subbie, same bullet at 4.5gr Bullseye, and I get leading. Now the formula says I should use 17.97 BTN, which means I should be using the xtreme 158gr LSWC that I have.

You do understand that your 4.5gr Bullseye load is only going at about 800fps? The Speer bullet should work fine at that power level, and if you are getting leading, it is due to something other than the BHN of the bullet. Lastly, even with a full blown, barn burning .357 Magnum load (of which your 4.5gr Bullseye load is not), there is no need for a bullet any harder than a BHN of 13 or 14. What you need is to make sure that your bullets are equal to or .001" over your cylinder throats and have a lube that is not too hard. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[gonoles_1980]

Thanks USSR, since I don't cast my own bullets, how do I control the diameter?

I'm not sure what lube Speer uses, it's a clear lube. xTreme uses the blue lube.

I don't have a chronograph, so I can't measure the speed of my bullets. The Speer manual used a 6" barrel, I have a 1.8" barrel, I know it is slower in velocity than the longer, but that is the best I can measure.

I usually shoot 50 rounds at a time out of this gun. It's the one I use for my carry gun. I use jacketed 38spl +P for my self-defense bullet in it.

I have been at this a few years, but there is always room for improvement. The more I reload the more I realize how little I know.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

First thing to check is the bullet to the cylinder throat. Ideally the bullet should need a mild push to pass. If the bullet drops through the cylinder it is too small and will lead the bore. If you have to hammer it through it is way to big and will be over pressure.

Hard cast bullets make a major selling point, but aren't always needed. Another item that masks the symptoms is the gas checks. Unless you're shooting above a .44 magnum gas checks are a waste of time.

I have found the I can push 38 WC bullets made from cast wheelweights in 357 mag to speeds of 1,200 fps (from the manuals) with minimal leading. These should be about 14 BHN, a mix used by a lot of reloaders.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Thanks USSR, since I cast my own bullets, how do I control the diameter?

I'm not sure what lube Speer uses, it's a clear lube. xTreme uses the blue lube.

Your cast bullets need to be sized. If nothing else, sizing makes the bullets round, which helps with accuracy. Determine the cylinder bore size and buy the appropriate Lee sizing dye. For lube Alox is great. And a bottle comes with the sizing die. Tumble lube the bullets, then let them dry before loading. I had better results with Rooster Jacket, but found it dries out and goes to powder after a year or so. If you don't store your ammo it's good.

 

[midland man]

well heres what I did I casted bullets out of a old single cavity lyman mold#454 190 they don't make this one anymore but offer it same number in a double cavity that I don't own but only the single cavity one! okay it drops at .460 I started with lead pipe and a .454 lee sizer die using lee alox now I got some leading with this die plus wider groups but I decided to try the lee sizer die in .457 with lee alox for bullet lube and now the leading is gone and infact loading these in my 45 colt for both my rossi 92 leveractions and one heritage big bore pistol they love this bullet no leading using 6.8gr greendot and these shoot very tight groups and zero leading now so I am pleased with this load!!

 

[gonoles_1980]

:banghead:I apologize <Head Held Down/> . I left a key word out , "don't". I don't cast my own bullets, I buy from xtreme or speer.

So how would I control the diameter of those.

I am very sorry that. :banghead:

 

[GLOOB]

Softer lead is best for low leading, simply because antimony/tin increases the propensity for fouling, period. Softer alloys are the only ones that can achieve 100% no fouling. Any significant hardness leads to antimony wash. Even in airguns, pellets with antimony require cleaning, eventually, period.

The biggest problem with softer alloys is that the case can swage the bullet. So when using softer alloys, you must take care of properly expanding the cases, so they are not too small.

 

[Mad Chemist]

My Worst Leading Experience

About a year ago I pulled out some old 125gr LSWC bullets from HSM that were labeled as .38spl. I loaded up some proven .38spl recipes and took them to my range for some plinking. They leaded my K-frame terribly.

After wasting too many hours inspecting the gun I finally checked the diameter of the bullets. They were .355":banghead:

Later on I fired much softer Hornady swaged HBWC through the same gun. No lead whatsoever. I am a firm believer that correct bullet diameter is the absolute number one most important criteria for preventing leading. Bullet hardness is a very distant runner up. If your bullets are sized correctly you will not get excessive leading until you hit extremely high velocities. If your bullets are sized correctly and the hardness matches the intended velocity correctly, you can push them very fast without excessive leading.

 

[41 Mag]

So how would I control the diameter of those?

There are several companies which offer their bullets sized to your choice. That said, you need to figure out what size you actually need. It isn't hard to do if you want to try it, and it can make a huge difference in your performance. The easiest route is to simply ask the companies if you can pick up a sample pack of a particular bullet in a particular size. Once they arrive, measure them and make sure they are correct. A touch big isn't going to hurt a thing, but a touch small might be the killer of the deal.

To slug the barrel is simply a matter of driving a pure lead slug through from the muzzle to the cylinder end. Most use the egg style lead fishing weights, however you need to make sure they are lead and not one of the newer green fishing weights that can be made up of anything from zinc to steel. Or if you already have some cast lead bullets on hand, you can just bump one up in diameter and use it. To bump it up, you simply set it on a thick flat washer or similar flat piece of steel on top the ram of your press. Set another similar piece below the die hole in the top and squeeze the bullet between them. You don't need much, just enough so that it is around .005-.010" or so bigger than it is now. This will give you a good tight squeeze down the barrel. Use a good lube in the barrel and brass bolt of around 3/8" in diameter to drive the slug through your barrel. I would not recommend using wood of any sort as it has a tendency of splitting and then wedging in the barrel.

If you know a local gunsmith, or possibly have a friend who does machining, they can check your cylinders using pin gauges which is a lot easier and usually more accurate than slugging them.

You want the cylinders to be a touch bigger than the bore of your barrel so that the bullets aren't being swedged down before hitting the bigger bore. If this is the case you can either have the cylinders reamed or simply shoot jacketed as the cast will never shoot properly. One other thing that can kill the deal with cast, is if your barrel is squeezed down where it screws through the frame. This has happened and seems to be common with some Ruger's. It can be fixed but requires fire lapping using lead bullets with different ranges of lapping compound embedded into the exterior so when you shoot them they lap the barrel out as you go.

Start with the easy stuff and move from there to the extreme. There are plenty of articles on how to accomplish all of this posted here and there on the net as well as some good videos.

 

[gonoles_1980]

Thanks for the patience guys. I will do some more research based on the comments above. Unfortunately my local gunsmith shutdown or retired.

 

[the Black Spot]

Take one of the lead bullets and see if it slides in easily to the cylinder throats. If it does here is my two cents: with that softer swaged bullet i would go with a fast powder stiffer load. The sharp wack of the powder is needed to obturate the bullet(like the bullet end-to-end being squeezed in a vice) so it forms to the size of the cylinder throats.
If said bullet doesnt slide into cylinder throats easily: i would check the manufacuter for listed size then buy a lee sizer that is .001 or .002 less than listed size.
This is all assuming your throats are larger than your barrel bore and assuming you dont have a set of calipers.
If your bore is greater than your cylinder throats, then i would ream out the throats .001 larger than bore size. Larger bore means your bullets will just "pinball" down the barrel.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

:banghead:I apologize <Head Held Down/> . I left a key word out , "don't". I don't cast my own bullets, I buy from xtreme or speer.

So how would I control the diameter of those.

I am very sorry that. :banghead:

That's okay. We'll only shoot you once.

The way to control the size of purchased bullets is to buy the correct size. Or you can buy oversize and size them yourself. Some of the lead bullet manufacturers will size what you need. IIRC Brad at MBC does that.