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Lead in a Glock (any poly rifleing), why not?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by saltydog452, Mar 18, 2011.

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  1. saltydog452

    saltydog452 Member

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    Why not shoot lead in a poly rifled barrel such as a Glock, Kahr, etc.?

    Thanks,

    salty
     
  2. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    Poly rifling is raised. Lead can build up on the rifling increasing resistance and eventually causing excessive pressure. You can shoot lead in them, but it's a good idea to clean it every few hundred rounds to avoid that possiblity.
     
  3. Enco

    Enco Member

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    Raised Rifling

    Isn't all rifling "raised" ?

    Bob
     
  4. ralph2

    ralph2 Member

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    I have tried lead bullets in my Glock 17 (9mm) and Glock 21 (45acp). At the lowest velocity + 50 fps that my 9mm would cycle the accuracy was not good. I only tried one powder, maybe another powder would have made a difference however the powder worked good for plated bullets. The Glock 21 seems to like lead bullets. I suspect it is a pressure issue since the 9mm is a much higher pressure round.
     
  5. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Different situation lands and groves...Vs the poly...Glock says don't do it...For a reason I might add;)

    As I said in another thread you can do it and get away with it (I choose not to) if you clean and not shoot to much for to long...But I have bought barrels to do that project, yeah it is expensive, the reason others want to shoot lead is the cheap of it, copper for Glock is best, they make a bunch of bullets with copper coating over lead, use them...

    Same with buying a trailer and using trailer tires, not passenger ones IMHO...

    :)
     
  6. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    How about 5-600 rounds before cleaning?

    Do some more independant research OP and read some things in other forums and around the net. You will find that the blanket ban on lead in glocks is unfounded in relation to the 45acp. 9mm and 40, I have no experience with, so I will not comment. I refuse to preach about something when I have NO experience with it.
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I have shot lead bullets in a Glock 23 for going on 15 years.

    All you need to do is use very hard Linotype bullets.
    And clean the dang chamber every month or so so it won't build up lead & bullet lube in the headspace shoulder and fire out of battery as 1st. Gen Glocks were prone to do.

    rc
     
  8. bds

    bds Member

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    OK, don't laugh at the crude drawing ... don't have access to my computer. :D

    First, Glock barrels are not truly polygonal rifled barrel in the truest sense but more with rouned lands (hills) in a hexagonal configuration.

    Below are rough representation of Glock vs conventional barrel/rifling. The Green circle represents the roughly the diameter of the bullet with glock "hills" pushing into the bullet's bearing surface and providing a tight seal from hot powder ignition gases, thus increasing chamber pressure and increased muzzle velocity from same length conventional land/groove rifled barrel.

    The barrel on the right shows the same green diameter of the bullet, but the grooves (red dots) provide space where hot powder ignition gas "leaks" around the bullet/hills of the rifling and provide an "outlet" for pressure buildup to escape.

    Match barrels have shorter lands and smaller groove area for more consistent chamber pressure which often results in more accurate shot groups.

    Glock barrels present potential pressure build up as published load data are developed using conventional land/groove rifled testing barrel fixtures. So, shooting published max load data in Glock barrels may produce higher than published pressures shot from same length barrels as verified by many published muzzle velocities. This may mean unknown increases in chamber pressure - with pressure spike prone powders/max charges, pressure damage may occur.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  9. dan10mmman

    dan10mmman Member

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    I have been shooting lead through my glocks for decades. The type of rifling used in the Glock barrels requires using a hard alloy of lead. Tin and Antimony are commonly used. Wheel weights or lino-type are my favorites. Using water to cold quench them also increases the hardness. Unless you can get your lead bullets hard , velocity needs to be kept low. With hard cast bullets I push a 10mm 180gr lead at 1200fps. with acceptable accuracy. I have fired 500 or more rounds in a day through my G-20 on many occasions. I clean it every time it goes out. Occaisionaly I throw it on the Outers "Foul Out" for a couple hours. No problems.

    Warning, if you use to soft of lead bullet or push it to fast you will find your accuracy will go south at a very high rate of speed. the soft lead will reform itself to a smaller diameter rather than spinning, kinda like shooting 20g. slug through a 12g rifled barrel. The bullets going downrange.....somewhere. This is why Glock recomends not using lead, they have no idea if you are using lead or an alloy. Two verry differt stories on how each can be used. Ammunition manufacturers are going to use the least expensive, softest lead available,[not all of them, highly recomend "Double Tap"] again not a good idea in a Glock.
    Pressure. The way the pressure inside the case of a firing cartrige builds is different when the projectile is lead or copper against the barrel of the gun. I have noted excessive pressures in lead loaded rounds that were not there using the same powder charge as jacketed, the infamous Glock smile at the bottom of the casing......Bad thing.
    I have learned a lot, some the hard way, but reloading is worth the time and effort. I hope this helps, feel free if you have any further questions. Have a great one
    Dan
     
  10. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Edited, because I read the above post. Yeah, that.
     
  11. glockky

    glockky Member

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    what hardness are u guys shooting in your glocks
     
  12. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    I loaded my first lead Glock loads in 1998...I still have all my fingers.
     
  13. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Ok, both threads are asking for a BH... Getting down to the nitty gritty :)
     
  14. smartshot

    smartshot Member

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    I've shot tens of thousands of rounds (many of them lead) through my glock 22, have replaced many parts due to wear and tear, not to include the barrel or anything damaged by lead bullets. I'm not saying to do it, I am saying that I have done it and it is still a very accurate handgun.
     
  15. IMtheNRA

    IMtheNRA Member

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    Years ago, Gale McMillan posted on The Firing Line: "If you're shooting lead through a polygonal rifled barrel and haven't had any problems, just be patient". :)

    Here's a link to a different thread with a short explaination of the problem: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18971
     
  16. bds

    bds Member

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    I have shot 9/40/45 bullets with BHN from 12 to 24 in my Glocks with varied results. Years back, I used to think that harder 21-24 BHN was better because they could be pushed faster (I was younger and faster was ALWAYS better ... so I thought. :D).

    Well, I always got some extent of leading that ranged from thin smear to heavy full-length strips along the rifling. When I checked with other shooters, they said I need to push the "hard cast" bullets faster to seal the bullet base to the barrel. Dang ... I ended up pushing the 21-24 BHN bullets to near max load data to decrease the leading down to minimal smear. I don't think I ever got any good bumping of the base (obturation) to seal the bullet base to barrel bore properly. I always had to clean the lead out of both stock Glock and Lone Wolf barrels using lead solvents (I used 3 different ones).

    When my local bullet caster retired, I tried Missouri Bullets based on THR positive postings/recommendations. I started with 18 BHN 9/40 bullets. Out of habit, I started my initial testing of 9mm 125 gr RN with near max load data. I got full-length barrel leading. My response was, "Oh crap! Doh! Too fast! :banghead: :D

    Well, it didn't take long to make the realization that with 18 BHN, mid to high range load data provided good bumping of the bullet base (obturation) to seal with the barrel bore and accuracy also improved. I worked with the powder charge to eliminate leading, but kept getting some fouling smear near the chamber end. Thanks to many THR PMs/threads/posts (Thanks, you know who you are ;)), it was determined that this little smear was from gas cutting and eroding of the bullet base (the flash of powder ignition doesn't melt the bullet base surface, not enough time/temp exposure) as the bullet jumped through the leade to engage the rifling.

    With Glock barrels, this is a particular problem as the start of the rifling is farther from the chamber than most other barrels. This is less of a problem with Lone Wolf barrel as the start of rifling is closer to the chamber. Lengthening the OAL to engage the rifling sooner further decreased this little smear and I no longer use any lead solvent. Hoppes #9 soaked bore brush wrapped with copper scrubbing pad material easily removes this little fouling smear with just a few strokes back and forth.

    Based on my personal experience, I think "no lead in Glock" may have to do with the fact that Glock rifling is rounded and smooth. If you are pushing the bullets fast (near max load data) because of really hard bullets, you are probably overcoming the rifling twist as rounded "lands" are not digging into the bullet surface and the bullet is traveling down the barrel without twisting. This will cause smear/strip leading along the barrel and decreased accuracy.

    Using less harder bullet and mid-high range load data will allow the bullet base to obturate and seal better with the barrel bore. If the rounded and smoother Glock rifling engages the bullet's bearing surface better, this will reduce the "stripping off" leading and improve accuracy. The tighter specs on Lone Wolf barrels and conventional land/groove rifling minimize this concern, but I found that same mid-high range load data rounds work well in LW barrels so I load them the same.

    When people ask me, "Are you shooting lead bullets out of Glocks?" I smile and tell them there are certain criteria/requirements that I use like the proper bullet/powder combination and more frequent inspection of the barrel. But yes, I do shoot lead reloads out of Glock barrels happily.

    With my recent salary cut, I am planning to shoot more lead bullets to practice over plated bullets. With significantly lower Missouri Bullets price over plated/jacketed, I still can shoot the same number of rounds at lower cost of reloading.

    Precision Delta 9mm 124 gr FMJ $77/1K, 40S&W 180 gr FMJ $114/1K, 45ACP 230 gr FMJ $119/1K

    Berry's (Powder Valley) 9mm 125 gr RN $65/1K, 40S&W 180 gr FP $91/1K, 45ACP 230 gr RN $113/1K

    Missouri Bullets/Powder Valley 9mm 125 gr RN $55/1K, 40S&W 180 gr TCFP $68/1K, 45ACP 230 gr RN $80/1K
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  17. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Again, I use nothing but Linotype cast bullets in mine.

    Linotype is BNH 22.

    rc
     
  18. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    What Gale McMillan mentions...:)

    Some help on hardness...

    http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

    Aluminum Brinell hardness of around 70
    Copper Brinell hardness 40-50
    Lead Brinell hardness usually in the 30's

    I am editing this but leaving so rcmodel's post makes sense...

    This is a good link to find hardness...

    http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/BrinellHardness.html

    Which really shows the original link posted...Hmmm Guess what lots of opinions LOL
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  19. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I don't know where they got that information.

    Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of 5.
    The hardest common lead alloy used in type setting is Monotype metal, with a Brinell hardness of 28.

    The hardest lead alloy used in bullet casting is Linotype metal, and it is Brinell 23.

    rc
     
  20. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    I guess I dont even need to bother reading those links, the info you posted from them is invalid. Once again, if you dont have any experience loading lead in glock, you base your assertions on false information, why are you even posting in this thread? You have created more confusion and misinformation for any newbie reloader that should happen upon this thread. Why cant you just leave it alone when you know nothing of the subject? Beat the dead horse somewhere else!
     
  21. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    ljnowell
    Because a newbee should not do it...Simple;)

    It is ok for those who have been around some and feel they have some experience... But those links are posted...

    I know an indoor range, that will not allow you to shoot lead in Glocks...:)

    I have a profile, your's is pretty slim to none...I notice that a lot;)

    This link you should read about brittleness and lead...
    http://nhunting.com/forum/topic/5765-bullet-hardness-vs-lead-fouling/

    Links help and the one who wrote them are responsible...You don't read them or the OP does not, fine...


    Regards
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  22. bds

    bds Member

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    Harley Quinn, I agree to a point.

    Many Glock fans see/read that "Glocks never need cleaning and still function" and take it that it applies to all bullet types - Wrong! These torture test objectives typically apply to the pistol action/slide operation while shooting jacketed factory or reloaded jacketed/plated ammunition as there's very little fouling building up inside the barrel. I have shot my Glocks with up to 4000 rounds of jacketed/plated bullets with no cleaning in a single range session without significant fouling buildup inside the barrel. With lead bullets, this is not the case.

    The reason why I have recommended checking of barrel every 200-300 rounds or so is this:
    This fouling smear is comprised of burnt carbon/lube/eroded lead and if this fouling smear is allowed to buildup (as in "Glock never needs cleaning"), it may get thick enough to provide enough resistance to the bullet nose to increase the chamber pressure. I have seen several KB'd Glocks and at least one blown Glock was shooting lead reloads and there was significant fouling buildup at the chamber end of the barrel.

    So, be safe but enjoy your Glock. Check that barrel for buildup at chamber end and clean as necessary. :D
     
  23. Gadzooks Mike

    Gadzooks Mike Member

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    MBC
    IDP #9
    .401 Diameter
    .40 S&W/10mm
    155 Grain SWC
    Brinell 18
     
  24. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    What is that supposed to mean? Your posts are "worth" more? Thats plain silly. Just post your experiences, post facts, but not opinions and what you have heard. Great, you posted what you read/heard/were told. Now, let others post what they know from practice and experience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  25. daorhgih

    daorhgih member

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    ++

    Does seem to be true, with a difference of ± 300 posts. But who cares about intra-post calumny? Not I. Digest all data with a grain of salt, and stay on the conservative side of KaBooom.. Dao.
     
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