Lead. Is it safe you work with?

[41 Mag]

Well I just want to give notice here and now, I am VERY concerned with the health and well being of all of you folks who shoot cast boolits. So for safety sake, and the well being and good health to you all, I want to here by offer to receive any and all lead boolits, wheel weights, ingots and any other form of alloy by which you have been pouring boolits with.

All I will charge for this great service to my fellow shooters, and humanity, is the actual shipping charges which you will incur upon shipment with your chosen carrier.

I promise I will dispose of it safely and properly.

Just PM me and I will send you the proper shipping address.

 

[1SOW]

Is lead safe for me to deal with?

Nope.
Neither are primers, powders and toilet/drain cleaners.

Meant as humor, but I would be very careful around children with ANY "potentially" harmful substances.

 

[FROGO207]

If you wash your hands after handling lead products before eating/smoking and use ventilation when shooting/casting indoors I would wager that your most dangerous exposure would be from the joints in your water pipes in your house. That is if it has copper piping and was plumbed more than 15 years ago. We now have to use lead free solder. I deal with this daily as I am a plumber/electrician by trade and have my lead levels checked yearly. I too cast, bite lead sinkers, drink water from old copper pipes, reload 40K plus lead bullets a year then shoot them indoors, and still have normal lead levels. I am aware, I take precautions as needed, and use COMMON SENSE around lead---this has done me well over the years. YMMV

 

[MattGP]

coolluke01,

I don't have a lot of experience in reloading; the safety of lead has already been debated within this thread and I'm not qualified to comment on the subject of lead poisoning.

What I do see in your original post is a love for your children and not wanting to do anything that 'may' or 'could' cause harm to them.

I think you've already answered your own question, "Could my children possibly be harmed by this?".

If you have to ask, you already know YOUR answer.

 

[dickttx]

Handling lead can probably be pretty dangerous. But not as dangerous as other things we are around everyday. Such as gasoline. And even the government doesn't have to tell you not to check the level of your gasoline with a match. About the same precautions with lead.
Neither are anywhere close to as dangerous as driving down the freeway with all the idiots that you have absolutely NO control over.

 

[MattGP]

coolluke01,

Another thought, if you decide that loading lead is safe for your family, be aware of cross-contamination; just as you would be in the kitchen when cookin' some grub.

 

[mje]

Kids are extremely sensitive to lead, so you want to be ultra-careful about exposing them. If you reload, tumbling cases and separating the media will put a LOT of lead dust and oxides in the air, so do that outdoors, or set up an air cleaner in your reloading room. This can be as simple as a box fan with a micron furnace air filter duct taped to the intake side. As for those who say they've been sucking in lead for decades with no ill effects... how would you tell? ;-)

 

[jcwit]

As for those who say they've been sucking in lead for decades with no ill effects... how would you tell?

I now have my blood levels tested 3 times a year, lead levels run 4 to 6, why does it very? No idea, no more than I know why my cancer protein levels very.

No, the cancer is not related to exposure to lead.

 

[Elkins45]

I would expect the hotter the lead the higher the vapor pressure.

You would expect a metal with an atomic weight of 207 to behave the same as water?

Lead bullet casting happens around 700K. The vapor pressure of Pb at that temperature is somewhere around 0.000001 mm Hg. To give you an idea of just how low that is, normal atmospheric pressure is 760 mm Hg.

http://www.powerstream.com/vapor-pressure.htm if you want to verify my numbers. I won't claim you can't poison yourself through accidental ingestion, and powder of the oxide can be an issue, but you aren't going to breathe enough Pb vapor to do it. It's just too heavy an atom.

Plus, think about all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Back in the days of molten lead type lithographers spent hours in rooms full of vats of molten Linotype and we don't see reams of stories of typesetters keeling over dead at a young age.

 

[35 Whelen]

You would expect a metal with an atomic weight of 207 to behave the same as water?

Plus, think about all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Back in the days of molten lead type lithographers spent hours in rooms full of vats of molten Linotype and we don't see reams of stories of typesetters keeling over dead at a young age

.


Finally, a voice of reason and not conjecture. Thank you.

I'm not a chemist, and some would probably consider me a borderline moron, but I could never figure out how something as heavy as lead could vaporize, make its way into my nostrils, and then kill me. So, I break most of the "safety" rules when I cast...and I'm still alive.

35W

 

[Elkins45]

I could never figure out how something as heavy as lead could vaporize, make its way into my nostrils, and then kill me.

It can...but you have to heat your pot up to around 5000 F before it becomes a serious issue. I'm pretty sure the dial on my Lee melter doesn't go that high!

 

[4895]

I understand your concern. When I load ANY ammo, I wear black NITRILE gloves from Harbor Freight. They are not the cheap ones; these cost about $9 on sale for a box. I don't always load lead, but when I do, I prefer to wear protection.

 

[jcwit]

Just had something else occur to me! LOOK OUT, HERE IT COMES!!!!

Back in the days when we had leaded gas, we didn't have bodies laying along side the byways & hiways dead from lead poisoning. Out here in the fly over country we even have folks who put their veggie garden next to the road way with no ill effects.

Just reinforces my thinking this whole scare is way overblown.

 

[snuffy]

I recently had my blood check and my lead limit was 8. Wiki says 10 is a cause for concern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_lead_level
Safe lead levels for ADULTS is 20. For children and pregnant women, it's 10

I wash my hands frequently, never eat after a small bore match without washing hands first. I only handle lead bullets when shooting or reloading.

Good advice, wash thoroughly to be sure the lead is off your hands, then be sure to take a shower and change your clothes.

I also shoot outside. Good ventilation is important.

However it is not a cure all as my Doctor told me of the blood test of a local who works at an indoor range. I have shot there and the air moves fast from the firing point. Even so, the employee had "really high" levels of lead in his blood.

You can also absorb lead through the skin.

NEGATIVE! Lead is NOT absorbed through UNBROKEN skin. Okay, .006% IS absorbed, at that rate, you'd have to have you entire body in contact with lead 24/7 to get a measurable level in your blood!

Kids are small, I just don't know the toxicity levels for kids.

As stated above, it's 10.

All your cut & paste stuff came from government agencies that have been trying to get us to stop using lead for decades. California finally did it by outlawing lead wheel weights, and making it illegal to use lead core bullets for hunting in most of the state.

Elkins, I copied your post and saved it for future referral when this topic comes up again. It's something I've been saying for years, just never had the proof that lead vapors have great difficulty getting airborne.

I too have been casting indoors since '72. The first 15 years in a drafty basement, no ventilation

Since then, I've been it the same spare bedroom as the rest of my loading gear. Again, no ventilation. The last 3 years, I've been getting tested for my lead levels, the HIGHEST was 7.0. That with shooting at an indoor range in wintertime.

A lot of hype from the govmint is just junk science. Studies that come to a forgone conclusion by cherry picking studies that agree with your agenda, and ignoring studies that say the opposite. Same goes with the so-called toxicity of lead.

Lead does not fume below 1200 degrees. So the smoke you see from fluxing is just that, SMOKE not lead fumes. Electric casting furnaces do not go over 900 degrees.

Fired primers are much more of a problem, the lead styphonate is easily absorbed when the dust from fired primers is inhaled.

When doing my own research on this topic, I did run across that idiot statement about the boiling point of lead, and it was on Cast boolits. Forgive me if I decide not to follow the toxicity advice from people who probably did not take a chemistry class.

And you did? Or was it just cut & paste? It's an established fact that lead boils at 3182 degrees Fahrenheit. Most casting takes place @ 7-800 degrees, I never go above 725. And yes I DO know exactly what my temps are. It's called a PID,A proportional–integral–derivative controller (PID controller). It controls temp +- 1 degree.

Slam, I've come to respect your opinion on powder degradation, but you're way off base on these claims. Maybe if we get rid of Obummer, the EPA will be gone, then we can live in peace.

 

[Mike1234567]

Me uzed to kast me own fishn wates an it dint mes me upp won bittty bit. Itz the choo-in onn the led sodder thet gotz me.

 

[hso]

Back in the days of molten lead type lithographers spent hours in rooms full of vats of molten Linotype and we don't see reams of stories of typesetters keeling over dead at a young age

Folks, this is my professional area and there are real negative health effects due to lead exposure. No govenment conspiracy, no overexageration, no anti propaganda. BTW, early industrial lead casting workers suffered a wide range of health problems that lead to chronic illnesses and shorter life spans. The workers involved in casting type are used as examples in industrial hygiene and public health texts and lectures.

If you're buying your bullets instead of casting AND if you're thorough about keeping the area clean any your own personal hygiene and the kids don't play with the bullets or equipment there shouldn't be any problem with working with unclad bullets. If you tumble, please clean your brass outside the house and dump all media outside as a precaution.

 

[Mike1234567]

Mee kantz agreee mor cuz... uhh... wut wuz i sayun?

 

[Slamfire]

I am so surprised by the push back on lead toxicity.

I assumed everyone knew lead was toxic. If you eat, drink, inhale the stuff, life will not be pleasant.

Last night I searched the web, looked for "Linotype toxicity" and found a CDC report from the 60's. I am not an occupational specialist and do not know how to correlate lead concentrations to risk, but they were testing all sorts of workers in all sorts of occupations that had exposure to lead. And all of the workers had lead in them. The tests were from urine samples , it is possible that blood tests are better.

In so far as linotype, that technology phased out of the US decades ago, so health problems in the US are moving beyond living memory. Still, you can search and find threads like this:

http://www.pneac.org/discus/messages/16/761.html?1193150780
I own a company in San luis Potosi , MEXICO that still uses lead in old linotype machines.

I want to find anyone who could provide me w/ info regarding the purchase of new fonts for these old machines and also w/ information on health issues regarding the use of lead.

Jeanett Medina

Reply Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2007 - 09:46 am:
________________________________________
Lead and certain lead compounds can be very toxic to humans resulting in several detrimental health effects. Exposure to lead occurs through skin absorption, ingestion or more commonly, inhalation. Inhalation represents the most rapid onset on toxic effects because it is rapidly absorbed and the amount required for these effects is smaller. Lead accumulates in the blood, bone, and other soft tissues especially the kidneys, liver, nervous system because it is not readily excreted. Excessive exposure to lead can cause anemia, kidney disease, reproductive disorders, birth defects, and neurological impairments such as seizures, mental retardation, and/or behavioral disorders. Even at low doses, lead exposure is associated with changes in fundamental metabolism. Fetuses and children are especially susceptible to low doses of lead, often suffering central nervous system damage or slowed growth. Lead may be a factor in high blood pressure, heart disease, and osteoporosis in women. High lead accumulation levels in the body can be fatal. Lead has its own separate OSHA standard that covers metallic lead, inorganic lead compounds, and organic lead soaps. Employee exposure to lead is set at 50 micrograms per cubic meter of air averaged over an 8-hour time weighted average. The action level is set at 30 micrograms per cubic meter of air averaged over an 8-hour time weighted average. Exceeding the action level triggers exposure monitoring requirements, medical surveillance, and employee training and education. The standard has other provisions covering workplace exposure control practices.

In the printing industry, there are several possible worker exposure scenarios. Lead exposure can occur during welding and cutting operations, lead paint removal, and melting lead by linotype operators. There is no data available on exposure levels for workers at printing facilities engaged in welding/cutting or paint removal. For linotype operations, the forms of lead involved are lead alloys and lead oxide, which is formed during the melting of the lead. In several studies conducted at approximately 10 printing operations where linotypes were being used, lead exposure was well below the standard. Employees were exposed to levels ranging from 1-5 micrograms/cubic meter. Sawing operations resulted in the greatest lead exposure ranging from 17-33 micrograms/cubic meter. In some linotype evaluations, there was no exposure to lead measured. It is important to note that these measured exposure levels should be considered site-specific and representative of the conditions existing at the time of the measurement. It is imperative that worker exposure levels be determined at your facility.


Instead of arguing over whether lead and casting is perfectly safe, I believe it would be more productive to find out what protective measures people take, and then maybe a pattern of good practices will fall out.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Although I "attempted" some humor with my posts they weren't intended to be "push backs". I have some very serious health issues some of which might be attributed to lead exposure. And, in my youth, I really did chew on lead solder. Hey, I was a kid. What did I know 40 years ago?

 

[snuffy]

hso

Folks, this is my professional area and there are real negative health effects due to lead exposure. No government conspiracy, no overexaggeration, no anti propaganda. BTW, early industrial lead casting workers suffered a wide range of health problems that lead to chronic illnesses and shorter life spans. The workers involved in casting type are used as examples in industrial hygiene and public health texts and lectures.

So HSO, what IS your profession? Stating you're a professional carry's no weight without knowing how it applies.

Lead and certain lead compounds can be very toxic to humans resulting in several detrimental health effects. Exposure to lead occurs through skin absorption, ingestion or more commonly, inhalation

As I already said, metalic lead is not absorbed through the skin, that's a bald faced LIE!

I am so surprised by the push back on lead toxicity.

REALLY? I'm surprised you're pushing this so hard. 100's of thousands of people cast lead bullets all over the world. If it was dangerous, thousands would be dying. You'd hear about it if that were true.

I assumed everyone knew lead was toxic. If you eat, drink, inhale the stuff, life will not be pleasant.

Nobody is saying lead is not toxic. What I'm saying is it is all blown out of proportion to the real dangers.


Last night I searched the web, looked for "Linotype toxicity" and found a CDC report from the 60's. I am not an occupational specialist and do not know how to correlate lead concentrations to risk, but they were testing all sorts of workers in all sorts of occupations that had exposure to lead. And all of the workers had lead in them. The tests were from urine samples , it is possible that blood tests are better.

Well, again, what did you expect to find? An outdated method of testing AIR QUALITY, in a process almost never used anymore. "and all the workers had lead in them". Everybody reading this has SOME lead in them, so at what concentrations?

The EPA is winning. Some are going to swallow the misinformation, give up casting or never get into it. Another bunch of shooters lost to unfounded fear.

 

[jcwit]

Instead of arguing over whether lead and casting is perfectly safe, I believe it would be more productive to find out what protective measures people take, and then maybe a pattern of good practices will fall out.

I believe the feds telling us how dangerous something such as lead is so gosh awful deadly when we mostly know its way overblown. Check out the chemicals under your kitchen sink and/or in your garage, something as simple as your lawn fertilizer, now there's some REAL deadly stuff. As far as the lead in paint in a toy that can sit in my hand being dangerous to a kid, there isn't enough lead to sit on the head of a pin there.

Keep the lead away from your youngsters, don't sniff the polishing media, don't eat or drink while casting. And most of us will die from something other than lead.

Didn't even bring up smoking while casting, cause that's more deadly than the lead, and sure is a bad way to go. Don't believe it, go visit a cancer ward!

 

[Elkins45]

In several studies conducted at approximately 10 printing operations where linotypes were being used, lead exposure was well below the standard. Employees were exposed to levels ranging from 1-5 micrograms/cubic meter. Sawing operations resulted in the greatest lead exposure ranging from 17-33 micrograms/cubic meter. In some linotype evaluations, there was no exposure to lead measured.

Im confused. Doesn't this support the contention that lead type printing wasn't all that deadly?

I don't think any responsible person is saying lead isn't toxic. But I also know there is no credible evidence that bullet casting will harm you unless you do a bunch of things wrong.

 

[orionengnr]

I shoot indoors weekly.

I separate tumbled brass outside, "usually" wear nitrile gloves when tumbling brass or loading lead bullets, but I am not fanatical about it.

I have (at my request) been having the lead level of my blood tested as part of the blood work in my annual physical since I started handloading about three years ago.
As of last March, my lead level is 8. My physician's standard is that 10 or above is a cause for concern (not a cause for panic).

As such, I am keeping an eye on it, but not concerned, and certainly not close to panic. If my lead level is 10 or more this March, I will revisit my tumbling and loading process, but will not stop loading or shooting. At 55, I'm pretty sure something else will kill me off long before anything lead-related will...being shot notwithstanding.

 

[35 Whelen]

I don't buy all the hype that lead will kill you if you handle leads bullets, then smoke a cigarette, eat, pick your nose, etc. I've been doing it too long using what most here would consider "unsafe" methods, and I'm alive and well.

That being said, isn't it possible that lead absoprtion, however it may happen, affects different people in different ways? Or that some peoples bodies absorb lead more easily than others? That some peoples bodies deal with lead better than others?

It's sort of like the whole high cholesterol/nitrate/nitrite BS. My great-grandparents largely subsisted on a diet that would horrify most doctors today. Eggs and bacon EVERY morning, whole milk, (much of the time fresh, as in straight from the cow). Fired chicken, fried porkchops, chicken fried steak, fried potatoes, ham, vegetables slathered in butter, sweet tea with sugar, etc. etc. God only KNOWS what their cholestrol levels were. Of the five whom I was blessed to know personally, the one to die the youngest was 93, the oldest a couple of weeks shy of 105.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are those who eat healthy, exercise, etc., and still die of heart attacks, cancer and strokes.

I said all that to say that it seems obvious to me that everyone is different. Where some people are constantly exposed to lead yet don't seem to have elevated lead levels in their bodies, others seem to be able to look at a cast bullet and have elevated levels of lead.

35W

 

[AABEN]

I am 71 years Young and have been loading 30 years and making my sinkers and bullets for 30 years and my Dr said I could live up to 90 2 week ago. I always pore out door in spring and fall With the wind at my back if the wind is low I have a fan behind me.