leading with Miss Hi-Tek 44 Elmer K projectiles

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Typetwelve, May 4, 2020.

  1. Typetwelve

    Typetwelve Member

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    Man...I'll admit it, I'm stumped here.

    I typically shoot Missouri's Hi-Tek Cowboy #3 44 in light magnum loads and have zero issues with it.

    I wanted to get them closer to std 44 mag speeds, so I bought a box of their 44 Elmer K projectiles, for the life of me, I cannot get it to stop leading. Here's the data:

    Ruger Super Redhawk, 7.5" barrel.

    Over 8 to 11.7g of Unique, I get leading in land/groove the first 30% of the barrel and it doesn't take long for the accuracy to go to pot. I've tried all loads between 8 and 11.7 (which produced 1337 fps ave). Shooting even 12 of them will produce significant leading.

    So, I figured, speed them up.

    I played with all kinds of 2400 and H110 charges, I took them to 1400 fps +, all the way up to 1600 fps ave, which is cooking. All of those gave me nasty leading all the way down the barrel in the groove of the rifling, which was a major pain to clean out.

    Typically, that would tell me "slow them down".

    If 1337 fps is leading at the beginning, and 14-1600 fps is leading all the way down...I really have no clue where to go form there. I'd rather not waste the $$ on the projectiles...but I just don't get where to go from here.

    I measured the dia of them ad they're identical to the CB #3, .430". I'd write it off to a projectile dia issue, but the 12 hardness bullets shoot just fine. The Elmer K projectiles are 18 hardness.
     
  2. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    Have you measured the cylinder throats and slugged the bore?

    Sounds typical of a gun with throats smaller than barrel groove diameter and/or constriction where the barrel is screwed into frame.
     
  3. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The pressure isn't enough to bump them up and seal the throats, getting gas cutting at the base of the bullet despite being coated.
     
  4. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Walkalong has it right. I note on the website that the Elmer K bullet is very hard. That is almost always a mistake with a handgun bullet. It may not be possible to drive it hard enough to work. Elmer himself cast his .44 Magnum bullets out of 1-16 tin-lead. Today this is considered very soft, but as long as the bullet fits and the gun is dimensionally correct, they work very well.

    <edit> And with a closer look, I see that Missouri's bullets are bevel base. They do that because it makes for a much easier cast with automated machinery, but it also encourages gas cutting. A very hard bullet with a bevel base and what is most likely a very hard lube (designed primarily to stay put during shipping and handling) is a recipe for leading.

    <Another edit> Montana Bullet Works is offering a softer "Keith" bullet with a flat base and your choice of diameter. I expect these would improve your results. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-noe-255gr-swc-k-authentic-keith/
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
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  5. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Why then did you change from the #3 Bullet which is softer bhn 12

    Which exact Elmer bullet did you get? Weigh and number if there is one?
    If you got bhn of 18 than you need another powder to jack them up to 44 MAG velocity.
     
  6. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    He already hit them with enough H110 to get them to 1600 FPS. I don't know what else he can do short of dynamite.
     
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  7. hossfly

    hossfly Member

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    Something is off. I've shot that exact bullet in two revolvers with 44 specials all the way through full house magnums and all points between and didn't have leading issues. I can't say both guns liked the bullet at every level in terms of groups, but I did not get leading.
     
  8. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    They were probably a better fit in your gun(s).
     
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  9. Typetwelve

    Typetwelve Member

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    I think many of you have hit the nail on the head...it's a funky combo of the hardness and the dia. I could probably use those if they were .431 instead of .430. .429 FMJ projectiles are very accurate, I have some useless .429 18 hardness lead projectiles that lead horribly no matter what I do with them.

    .430 with a 12 hardnesss is a-ok, .430 with a 18 hardness is not, I can't push them hard enough to get them to seal properly. I'm probably going to shelve them like I did with the other ones.

    Thanks for talking me through it.

    ...one last thing, someone asked me why I moved from the 12 hardness. I ordered them as well so I could shoot them harder then I could the Cowboy #3.
     
  10. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    It would be interesting to see how the Cowboy #3s shoot at magnum velocities.
     
  11. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    this.
    lead at the beginning is fitment and obituation.
    leading at the end is a lube issue.

    also 18BHN is to hard for any pistol bullet short of 454 casull pressures.
    I have no idea why bullet manufactures do this.
    i run 16BHN bullets coated with Hitek at 2400FPS in a 7.62 rifle. any harder and they do not preform well on game animals.
     
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  12. Typetwelve

    Typetwelve Member

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    How about the first box of projectiles I ever bought? I bought 500x 148g DEWC from those morons over at laser-cast (now Oregon Trail)...the stupid things are 21 hardness (yes, twenty-stinking-one). Set me back $55. I got them, a good chunk of them were missing the lube as it all fell off and I tried loading the ones that still had lube on them...leaded everything I shot them in like mad. Now see that they don't even make them that hard anymore...now I think they're 12 hardness.

    In other words, I have a massive, and expensive box of useless crap sitting in my basement. That's the first and last $$ Oregon Trail ever gets out of me.
     
  13. drband

    drband Member

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    I shoot the MBC 240 gr 18BHN Keith bullets in my SBH. No leading at 7.5-8gr Unique. Also shoot them over 23.5 W296-- with no leading.

    I think the bullets fit my SBH.
     
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  14. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I shot a bunch of those in some 629's from light specials to near max loads of 2400 and they never gave me an issue.

    Probably a fit issue if I had to guess.

    I keep meaning to try some in my Rossi 92, but the barrel dimension differences between rifle/pistol make me a little gunshy.
     
  15. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    I used a couple thousand laser cast 158 swc with the way too hard bullets and never got any leading at all. I don't buy them anymore because I know better (now) and there are less expensive better bullets, but i still have a supply of them left. I agree 21 bhn is stupid hard but if they fit, they do fine. I've used their 250 grain rnfp .452s at cowboy action speeds without an issue either.
     
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  16. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    At least for a while it seemed as though commercial casters were all working to see who could offer the hardest bullet. Perhaps that fad has not entirely disappeared.
     
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  17. Jesse Heywood

    Jesse Heywood Member

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    If you haven't read it. www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

    If you know someone who casts, they can be melted and blended to a more useful alloy.
    Or you can post them in the PIF thread. :)
     
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  18. Wing Rider

    Wing Rider Member

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    I was just about to order the same bullet for the first time. I think I remember reading that the Rugers have a tighter throat and is that is what is causing the leading? I have the same SRH. I noticed that MBC offers a 12BHN bullet but it is listed as 44 special not 44 mag. Not to change this tread but I cant find the instructions on determining throat diameter of my SRH. Could someone tell me where that could be found?
    Thanks
     
  19. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Yep my bad, I misread the post, thought he was using the soft ones with H110
    The correct answer is "slug the bore"
     
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  20. Obturation
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    Obturation Contributing Member

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    It can be slugged (throats) but most guys including me just takes the bullet they'd like to use or on of a known size and see if you can push it through each chamber in you cylinder. Slight/ minimal effort should get it clear through. If you've got a set of calipers you can use the back side "inside " measuring jaws but it's not too precise. Lots of other ways too bit they require other devices.
     
  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I start by hitting one with a hammer to make sure the coating doesn't flake off. Like the center one.

    [​IMG]

    The coating, can contain the lead even if its molten inside the coating.

    [​IMG]

    So the next step is to recover one to see how its holding up upon firing. I use my swimming pool.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. drband

    drband Member

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    Slightly flatten (whack it on the nose with a hammer) a soft bullet that's close in size, then force it through the throat. I would use a micrometer rather than a caliper to measure the bullet diameter after forcing it through. This is pretty easy to do on cylinder throats. If you choose to slug the barrel, it's the same procedure, but be sure to have a good push rod of some sort that will not damage the rifling. I use a solid brass rod that is just under size of the lands.

    The key is to have a SOFT lead bullet and proper push rod. (not wood) I believe some folks use a steel rod wrapped with tape in a few places to keep it off the lands. (I have not done this.) Again... a micrometer will be more accurate than a caliper.

    Oops... just saw jmorris's post. He makes good sense!
     
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  23. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Slugging throats, as described above, does work. I play with enough different revolvers that I bought a set of pin gauges. That was a couple of hundred bucks, but I've never regretted it. It really simplifies the process. For under 20 dollars a fellow could buy three or four individual pins (I would consider .429, .430, and .431 if I had a modern .44) and be in the game.
     
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