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Leading!

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Jech, Jul 29, 2010.

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  1. Jech

    Jech Member

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    After shooting an IDPA match last week with my SA XD45 Tactical, I'm seeing leading in my chamber O_O

    Before the match, the gun was cleaner than the day I bought it...detailed slide disassembly with Hoppe's #9 in the barrel, non-chlorinated brake cleaner on the rest of the parts, relubrication, etc.

    The load I was shooting is 4.8gr of Unique burned by Remington #2 1/2 (standard large pistol) primers under 230gr MBC Softball LRN bullets in newish Winchester brass. My COAL is 1.228" and I'm dead certain that this load is headspacing on the mouth of the case *not* the lead.

    I was expecting to find some minor leading in the first inch or so of the barrel (which I did) but the chamber leading really caught me by surprise. What could be causing this and how the hell do I clean it without nasty solvents?

    Thanks ~ Jech
     
  2. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    Get it out by wrapping a few strands of a ChoreBoy pad around a tight patch and working it through the barrel (back and forth)

    Make sure to use REAL ChoreBoy pads (all copper) and not some of the cheaper copper coated pads...use a magnet to tell which is which.

    Thats how I clean lead out of my 45-70 barrel.

    Chamber leading??? You mean lead actually "IN" the chamber?

    If so, its getting in there during feeding...adjust the OAL and see what happens.

    230 LRN...I've never shot lead through a pistol other than a 45 Colt, but shouldn't the OAL length with a 230 grain round nose bullet be 1.26" or so?
     
  3. Jech

    Jech Member

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    I have no problem removing the small amount of leading in the forcing cone of the barrel. Even after 300 rounds, I would describe it as minor at best...nothing a few minutes with a bore snake won't remove.

    Yes. It's primarily in the *bottom* of the chamber, it looks like speck of lead that have been flattened by subsequent fired cases smashing it into the chamber wall. It doesn't look like smearing or streaking from the nose of the bullet being squished against the chamber wall.

    Being new to all of this, I could be very wrong here but it's my understanding that a cartridge's OAL is determined by the shape and profile of the bullet, not the weight of the bullet. My newbie terminology would describe the bullet as having a "shoulder"...if I don't seat it deep enough, the cartridge will headspace on that shoulder not the case mouth. I've tested this by with a a dummy round with the bullet seated much shallower at 1.3". I can clearly hear the "thunk" it headspacing on lead versus the brass "ping" or "tink" of a factory round headspacing on the case mouth properly. Here's a link to the bullet I'm using for a visual reference... http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=59&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=

    Also, SA XD pistols are notorious for their factory tight/short chambers, I've had exactly zero FTF/FTE malfunctions with this powder charge/COAL in ~1k rounds fired so I'm really hesitant to call the issue as a COAL problem. But afterall, I've only been at this a few months and know I have a lot to learn :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  4. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    shape and profile ...yes.

    Thats why I said 1.26", the common OAL of round nose bullets in 45acp.

    I'm familiar with XD 45's...I had 2 of them, sold the Tactical. (not because it wasn't a great pistol, just too big to carry), My wife carries the 45 Compact.
     
  5. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    And a ChoreBoy scrub will likely get that out of your chamber too.

    You ain't seen leading till you've pushed 300 grain lead bullets out of a 45-70 at 2,200 fps (bullets that were too soft at that)
     
  6. bds
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    bds Member

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    Could you be shaving the side of the bullet possibly during seating/taper crimping of the bullet?

    You could try different amount of flaring and taper crimp to test if it makes a difference.

    I normally flare the case neck just enough to set the bullet flat to seat the bullet - could barely see by eye, but can certainly feel with fingers. I make sure to set the bullets flat so they don't "tip" and get shaved. If I see any lead shaving, I increase the flare "just a bit" until they seat without shaving.

    Once I get the flare and OAL right, I adjust the taper crimp so the case neck flare is just taken in flat. The loaded round should drop into your chamber with a "clink".

    FYI, I load MBC 200 gr SWC/RN and 230 gr RN (both 18 BHN) with 5.0 gr of W231/HP38 at 1.25" OAL with virtually no leading (If you use shorter OAL, you may want to reduce your powder charge). It is very accurate and my designated 45 match load. The 200 gr RN should feed/chamber well for your pistol instead of the SWC nose profile.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
  7. Jech

    Jech Member

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    Using Lee carbide 4-piece deluxe dies in a 4-hole classic turret press for this load...

    The Winchester brass comes out at .466" from the resizing/decapping die, then .470" from the powder flow-through/expander die. Is 0.004" too much flare? I can't see it already, have to feel it to check if it's there sometimes as it is...it's barely enough to get those bevel-based bullets sitting on the case enough for seating. I have my bullet seater/taper crimp die seated fairly shallow in my turret so the cartridge doesn't actually hit the crimping portion of the die. The FCD is set to barely kiss the case mouth, just enough to remove the bell taking the mouth down to .468" Any less crimp allowing the mouth to stay closer to .470 and I start seeing ejection issues where the rim of the case being ejected is buggering the mouth of the round on top of the magazine.
     
  8. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    You may be causing your leading with post sizing on the crimping die. My 357 post sizer is the perfect size, but my 45acp was way undersized, and would cause those problems. I just opened it up a little, and no more problems.
     
  9. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Could the expander be undersize? If your measuring the bell at .470" somethere is wrong. More flare is needed. Your shaving lead on bullet seating i would guess. The Lee seating die taper crimps first then roll crimps in the same die, this can be a problem also.
     
  10. bds
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    bds Member

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    I measured some of my 200/230 gr reloaded 45ACP rounds and 230 gr factory FMJ ammunition - they all measured 0.470" - I am using Lee carbide dies.

    If you are getting 0.470" from the powder flow-through/expander die, then you are not flaring the case neck enough and probably shaving the side of the bullet during seating. It is likely these shavings are what you are seeing at the bottom of the chamber, which may affect your headspacing of the chambered rounds.

    I do not use the FCD. When I help setup a press for a new reloader, I do not have them use the FCD. I have them adjust the dies so all the rounds fall into their chambers with a "clink" because FCD will "erase" and mask any mistakes they make with the other dies.

    Jech, remove the FCD from your press/turret and recheck your dies making sure that:

    1) You are full-length sizing your cases:
    - Raise all the dies above the bottom of the turret and lower the ram lever all the way down
    - When the shell holder/plate is at the top, lower your decapping/sizing die until it barely "kisses" the top of the shell holder/plate
    - Put a spent case in the shell holder/plate and recheck your die adjustment

    2) Next, using the full-length sized case you just sized, slowly lower the powder flow-through/expander die until you get a slight flare you can feel with your fingers but barely seen by your eyes.

    3) Raise the bullet seating knob in your taper crimp/bullet seating die and slowly lower your taper crimp/bullet seating die body until you start to take in the flare of the case neck. Slowly continue lowering the die body until you feel the flare taken in almost flat with your fingers.

    4) Now, make a dummy round.
    - You can deprime/resize another case or take the same case you just taper crimped and flare the case neck. Set a bullet on top of the flared case neck and slowly lower the bullet seating knob with each pull of the ram lever until you reach the desired OAL. If you are setting the bullet flat and see lead shaving, increase the flare on the case neck just slightly until you don't see any lead shaving (of course, you won't see any shavings if you are seating a plated or jacketed bullet). The dummy round should measure around 0.470". If not, adjust the taper crimp die body/bullet seat knob. The finished dummy round should freely drop into your chamber with a "clink".

    5) Once your dies are properly adjusted so they chamber well/pass the case gauge, you can THEN use the FCD to add that "factory crimp" finish to your case neck.

    I hope this helps.
     
  11. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    My sized & expanded brass measures about .470" on the body below the bell. The bell/flare measures about .473" on the mouth before taper crimping. My RCBS expander measures .450" My Dillon expander (Oval, out of round) measures .4473" to .4492" Dillon :cuss:
     
  12. Jech

    Jech Member

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    I have so many questions now haha! Does anyone live near the Dalles, Oregon? There's a 12-pack of your favorite brew here for you to correct my ways :p

    Just measured several cases of varying headstamps right of the resizing/decapping die, the mouth and bodies are consistently .468", does this mean that my resizing die is too small?
     
  13. bds
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    bds Member

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    I think you just need to put more flare on the case and taper crimp/seat bullet without the FCD first.

    If it all goes well, then use the FCD.
     
  14. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Your OK. You only need to maybe flare the case mouth more. Shaving of the bullet can happen in the seating die if its inside diameter is to small. The die will remove the bell/flare too soon. Turning the seating stem down more can help. You are already taper crimping in a separate die, so that is good.
     
  15. Jech

    Jech Member

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    I tried flaring to a bit more aggressively this time at .480". I gotta say it worries me flaring that much, there are some wonderful scraping and grinding noises coming from the expander die dropping the ram when I apply that much flare but any less and I can't seem to avoid getting some pretty rough shaving.

    After a bit of trial and error adjusting the taper on my bullet seater die, I've found that anything tighter than .475 shaves the bullets something fierce. This isn't fully removing the bell, just below the bell but still measuring on the seated bullet shank, I'm seeing .473". If I set it deep enough to fully remove that bell, again I get really bad shaving, especially if I try a longer OAL of 1.26+

    I tried varying OALs from 1.225 to 1.265 and nothing gives me a good "clink" except a short 1.228-1.235" OAL. It might me worth mentioning again that the bullets I use are not jacketed or plated, the curve of the ogive is not continuous to the shank of the bullet, there is a distinct shoulder and only by seating to a depth where that shoulder is flush with the case mouth, do I get a good solid "clink".

    softball.jpg
     
  16. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Seat the bullet deeper so the lip is inside the case mouth or flush, than taper crimp. See if they feed ok. What COL will seating flush give you??
     
  17. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Shoot some at that COL, see how it goes.
     
  18. bds
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    bds Member

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    Then that's the OAL you should work with. Different pistol barrel ramp angle/chamber size/magazine feed angle require different OAL (even for round nose profile) to feed/chamber well. I always determine the OAL that feeds/chambers well from the magazine for a particular bullet profile before I do load development with different powders and charges for reliable slide cycling and accuracy of shot groups.
    Some reloaders don't even use any flaring for jacketed or plated bullets. I usually use very slight flaring for jacketed/plated bullets and a bit more flaring for lead bullets to minimize shaving of lead from the side of the bullet. That distinct shoulder is common among 230 gr lead round nose bullets. I think with XD, you have narrower range of OAL that will feed/chamber well compared to other 45ACP pistols. FYI, Missouri Bullets 200 gr RN does not have that "distinct shoulder" and web page comment states, "Feeds like butter in SA XD". Perhaps Walkalong and other reloaders can comment which OAL works well in their XD45 for 230 gr RN lead bullet.

    Looks like you are making progress, keep on trying!
     
  19. Jech

    Jech Member

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    After several hours, multiple mangled bullets and lots of frustration, I've decided that these bullets have to be seated at 1.22-23"; anything more and the nice clink goes away.

    I'm sure I'm reinventing the wheel here but here's how I experimented...

    I created 7 dummy rounds with COALs ranging from 1.21-.27", each .01" longerr than the previous. Then, I took a sharpie and blacked out the entire bullet as well as the first half of the case. The "painted" dummies were then dropped into the chamber and spun around several times. The goal here was to find out where the thunkers/clinkers were headspacing by observing a point of contact, rubbed free of black ink.

    My conclusion was that point of headspacing was always on the bullet until that shoulder was fairly flush with the case mouth, this would be the 1.21, .22 and .23 inch dummies. To back up the ink-indications, only those 3 dummies clinked like my factory Winchester White Box FMJs.

    As a side note, increasing my flare from .473" up to .48" in conjunction with backing out my seating die far enough that it isn't applying the taper while the bullet is still moving into the case appears to have cleared up my shaving issue. I'm wondering if that's why my chamber/forcing cone leading was so light and random. Slightly thicker-walled or longer cases whose inner wall started digging into the bullet shank during seating/tapering before the inner case lip had met/passed the shoulder.
     
  20. Jech

    Jech Member

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    I took a long hard look at that picture...I can't tell if there's a very slight shoulder there before the wax-groove or if the lighting is playing tricks on me and there's actually a small crimp groove.

    If anyone has experience with these bullets in their XD45, I would be extremely interested/thankful for some insight into these bullets =D

    idp4xd.jpg
    http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=78&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=

    ~ Jech

    EDIT: After looking through Magma Engineering's bevel base bullet guide, the 45-233-RFBB seems like it would be a superior bullet style...longer with a gentler ogive curve and no shoulder allowing for greater seating variation depending on the firearm. I wonder if Brad over at Missouri Bullet Co has ever produced this style before?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  21. bds
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    bds Member

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    Nice work!

    Some aspects of reloading is trial and error. Glad you identified your lead shaving cause.

    There is no shoulder on the bullet, just a crimp groove. The nose profile of the bullet allows you to load to shorter OAL than 230 RN before the diameter of the bullet nose decreases smaller than the case neck.
     
  22. bds
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    bds Member

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    Not sure if the longer bullet nose profile would help with feeding/chambering in the XD45. I think Brad offers 45-200 RNFP BB as a viable alternative to the 200 SWC for the XD45.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
  23. Jech

    Jech Member

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    Looking back to my barrel, I picked up a pair of copper scrub pads at the local Bi-Mart for about $3. Before I hit the checkout line though, I took them into the school supplies section and put them to the biggest magnet I could find :)

    Other places I've read said they literally cut out a patch of the ChoreBoy mesh and laid it over a nylon bore brush. Did you mean you unravel a strand or two and wrap it around a regular cleaning patch on something like a plunger attachment? I had a helluva time trying to get a 1" by 1" patch I cut to go into the bore >< Once I did though, it worked great.
     
  24. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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  25. Jech

    Jech Member

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    They're made of stainless steel O_O isn't this just begging for problems?
     
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