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Leaving anti-gun states - bad idea? Maybe.

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by f100owner, Mar 22, 2013.

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  1. f100owner

    f100owner Member

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    We are seeing companies discussing leaving the states they operate in because of anti-gun/anti-second amendment positions being taken by their representative states. Most of us are aware of individuals who have indicated a willingness to leave their current home state (say New York, California, Illinois) for similar reasons.
    While I know Texas would welcome those businesses and probably most of those individuals vacating their tread-on-me states, would a mass exodus be good for the greater cause?
    I suspect not.
    When, you as a voter or a business paying taxes leave you no longer have a say in the fight. As long as you are there doing "battle" against the tyranny of your respective state governments you represent hope.
    Just my two cents.
    Still, Colt come on down to Texas.
     
  2. HankR

    HankR Member

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    I'm not a company, but when I fled the anti-rights state I used to live in I figured I was voting with my wallet. They are no longer taking my tax dollars to use against me and my beliefs. The taxes I pay now mostly go for stuff I support. As a bonus, there tend to be a lot less taxes associated with my new state. Win-win.

    These companies are retreating to a place where they are appreciated and fighting the battle in a new state. Having shown that they practice what they preach, will the new state think twice before trying some NY or CO style shenanigans? You betcha!
     
  3. AirForceShooter

    AirForceShooter Member

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    I have always believed in fighting the good fight.
    I never expect to win every fight.

    But the odds are now so stacked in the anti states fighting is just about a worthless effort.

    The only place that fight can be won is in Federal Court.

    That I can do from a friendly state.

    AFS
     
  4. f100owner

    f100owner Member

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    I can understand the perspectives provided.
    But here is my thought process.
    Will we continue to experience incremental loss of liberties or will something happen that will make it happen more aggressively?
    Let's say the great migration is really beginning. Patriots who believe in our Constitution continue their exodus from state's where being a patriot is akin to being some backwater redneck and the companies who provide thousands of jobs while making products that "kill innocent lives" are subjected to increasingly intolerable business environment.
    Over the course of time the representatives of these other states will have less to fear from the voters and will vote increasingly along lines that hurt us. I won't say liberal or conservative. I believe there are liberals with as strong a sense of support for the Constitution as some conservatives.
    That means the nature of Congress will change, to our dislike, with more reps not worried about Constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms. As such happens it will be increasingly easy for bills to be passed that eat away at the Second and First Amendments and no doubt others, as well.
     
  5. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Sometimes you find that you are sitting inside a jail cell. Fortunately though, the door to the jail cell is open and you can leave if you wish. Now, you can stay and try and make your home there and given enough time and effort you can change it from a jail cell into a place so wonderful that others will come in to live there. But you don't want to raise you kids in that jail cell. You don't want them bound by those walls if they don't have to be. The worst would be for them to grow up and get used to those prison bars and then to think that everyone should be forced to live within them; effectively shutting that door that currently sits open. After all, the door there is wide open and you and your family can leave if you like.
     
  6. HankR

    HankR Member

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    Very well stated
     
  7. mnhntr

    mnhntr Member

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    There is no fighting the liberal establishment in states like IL CT MD NY CA and others simply because the masses of sheep that live there, and the corruption of the politicians.
     
  8. f100owner

    f100owner Member

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    I like the analogy by CoRoMo and can't challenge it, nor do I want to. I am lucky as I live in an area where gun ownership is not viewed negatively. But i also like the thought that in areas were we are viewed less positively, that there are fellow patriots "holding" the lines, so to speak.
     
  9. 627PCFan

    627PCFan Member

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    I did leave.
    I had the finical means at the time, and did not want to start a family in Maryland. I grew up surrounded by farms, but now it’s nothing but suburban sprawl interspersed with neighborhoods that are a slight nicer than this side of Iraq. Not somewhere I wanted to raise a family, or deal with taxes, politicians and law enforcement that practices catch and release (how else are they supposed to get money from fines if everyone’s locked up already).
    Unfortunately I realize that most people probably aren’t able to up and leave because of employment and family.
     
  10. subdude

    subdude Member

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    I left as well. Grew up in MD, escaped over the border to PA. I couldn't fathom the thought of going back.
     
  11. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    The simple, chilling truth is that some parts of our Republic are too far gone.

    In the real world, sometimes there is no redemption, Anakin Skywalker dies unrepentant, and Luke goes home sad.

    I spent many years searching for what I believed to be a hidden wellspring of people bearing baseline American/libertarian values in the Dark and Fascist State of NJ.

    I found a few, but not nearly enough. Most people there literally do not understand themselves to be sub citizens, and do not value the liberty they never had, don't miss, and don't understand.

    When I finally accepted that, I packed up my family, my business, my goods, and I fled.
     
  12. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Of course, it's very easy to say leaving anti-rights states is a bad idea when you are writing from Texas.
     
  13. calaverasslim

    calaverasslim Member

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    Pistolpositive, I wish I could say your right. You list some good positions. However, the analogy that COROMO lists trumps yours, sad to say.

    I have posted my position here. Just wonder what kind of response it will receive.
     
  14. mr.scott

    mr.scott Member

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    Op premise seems to be based on what happens to those that don't leave.
    The truth is you are fighting a lost cause where they have overwhelming left support. The best option is to go where you are free and fight/vote to keep it that way.
    If you don't want to leave for other reasons that is your choice, but don't expect those that can leave to stay and continue to get beat down when freedom is available to them.
     
  15. BK

    BK Member

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    LOL!!!!

    Stay and fight!! No. Leave and come here!!!
     
  16. hovercat

    hovercat Member

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    The Bible is also a book of wisdom about human nature.
    The Israelites came out of Egypt into freedom. But as soon as the going got tough they wanted to return to the chains, because they were used to having someone else responsible for their needs, no matter the onerous price. It was their normal, and independance IS scary.

    They had to be paraded around in circles in the desert for 40 years, until those who thought like slaves were dead and what remained was a people who only knew freedom, before they could become a nation again.
     
  17. PinoyInFL

    PinoyInFL Member

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    How about taking this even further? If some of us feel that it would be right to walk out of their current home state because of anti-2A policies, what about not patronizing those businesses who choose to continue to remain in a anti-2A state? Consider that every tax dollar that we use to patronize that business is used against us by that state's govt.
     
  18. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Let me answer this from a very personal perspective.

    I've lived in Colorado for about 15 years. It's my home.

    I have some gun-related business interests in Colorado. In addition, I am heavily involved in competition shooting in Colorado. I also have a business interest that is based in Wyoming.

    From a business perspective, laws like that Colorado just passed make business operations complex or undefined, have unknown liabilities, and sort-of impede normal things we want to do in day to day operations. Thus, businesses in this position pretty much have to move immediately to continue profitable business operations. A business doesn't have a vote.

    From a personal perspective, I want to stay and put in the political fight. This is my home and I don't want to give it up to the anti-gunners. That said, if we don't have significant success by early 2015 it's probably done and time to leave.
     
  19. mokin

    mokin Member

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    I think Zak is right. If we in Colorado can't turn things around here right away it may be too late. That is for us here in Colorado to think about. That being said I fully support any boycott any of the rest of you who would otherwise come here to vacation, hunt, ski, etc. decide to enact. For a while now I've thought the hunting regulations were easier to deal with in Wyoming or Arizona, and the snow better in Utah or Idaho.
     
  20. f100owner

    f100owner Member

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    As one poster said, I am writing this from a currently very pro gun/second amendment state. I could not fathom living in an environment where such is not the case.
    I do view some states as too far gone. But what I fear more is that we continue to lose ground. States on the border of going one way or the other, appear to be more likely leaning to the "dark" side. If this continues, we will not have adequate representation in our national offices.
     
  21. breakingcontact

    breakingcontact Member

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    Is this original? Well written.

    I respect those who want to stay and fight. Don't blame those who want to escape and seek more freedom to exercise your civil rights though. Same thing with moving from a high tax state. Texas has zero personal income tax. You can either stay and fight your states high income tax or move to where you have more economic freedom.

    As far as the gun makers moving, long term, I don't see how they can't and won't move.
     
  22. Paradigm

    Paradigm Member

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    I'm from WI, living in TN through the summer.
    My home state is WI. Although blue on a political map, and in spite of Madison (the San Fransisco of the Mid-West) I feel that WI is by and large a conservative state, and still salvageable. Any thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  23. Paradigm

    Paradigm Member

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    Very astute point, hovercat!
     
  24. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    IMO: Having studied the issue, this is my list of unsalvageable states, which are incapable of reform from within:

    IL
    NJ
    MA
    NY
    CA
    MD

    These states are in their position either because of structural reasons (ie: the Chicago machine dominating IL) or because the majority of their citizens have been entirely demoralized and have have adopted a baseline collectivist worldview (NJ, MA, CA) or both.

    The rest probably are not too far gone.

    My take is that any hope these "too far gone" states have for reform will be imposed from without (much like Reconstruction), most likely in the form of reasonably strong pro 2A rulings being applied to the states, which is something that can happen, with a savvy application of lawsuits, in a 5-10 year timeframe.

    I expect that when it's all over, there will be three main gains: First, onerous obstructions to obtaining guns are likely to be shot down, I expect to see an end to things like the FOID and FID. Second, I expect to see general reform on the topic of right-to-carry (aka bear) arms, probable a requirement of either "shall issue" ccw and/or Constitutional Carry". Finally, I expect to see reform on state level "AWB"s, as their rationale and justification is fundamentally inconsistent with 2A as interpreted by Miller and Heller, and you can also make a decent 14A argument against them.
     
  25. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Very well said, and a perfect analogy. Besides, I can see a time in the not too distant future where those states will find some way to confiscate the assets of people who try to leave via some form of "relocation tax".

    Get out now before it costs you half your savings.
     
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