lee 3 die vs 4 die set

[gibson_es]

i tried to do research on this, and it seems my ignorance is making even the answer someone unclear. before i get into it, im refering, in this case, to reloading pistol ammo, i will start with 9mm luger. and im sure i will have more questions soon to come....

if i understand correctly from what i have read so far, the 4th die is not as useful to those using a single stage as it is to those using, say, a turret press. and that one of the dies in the 3 die set, will actually do what the 4 die will do (just maybe not as quickly when using something other then a single stage)

can anyone elaborate, or tell me if i an understanding this incorrectly?

also, is the 4 die set, the exact same dies and the 3 die, just with the extra die?

if this is all the case, and one could purchase the 4 die set, and, if using a single stage, just not use the 4th die... and then down the road when upgrading presses, one would already have the more convenient 4th die on hand.

i am hoping to finally, after a couple years of on and off research and debating, going to start reloading, and if i order soon, i can get a good deal on a few of the items needed. i just dont know what to purchase, 4 die or 3 die. i dont mind spending the extra few bucks on the 4 die just to have the extra for down the road when upgrading presses.

 

[hartcreek]

In my .40 cal lee die set that 4th die is a carbide sizer/roll crimp die so it sure needs to be used.

 

[1KPerDay]

In my .40 cal lee die set that 4th die is a carbide sizer/roll crimp die so it sure needs to be used.

Incorrect. The 4th die in your .40 caliber 4 die Lee set is the Lee Factory Crimp Die, which for .40 is a taper crimp die with a carbide sizing ring in the mouth. You certainly don't NEED it to make good ammo. All "standard" die sets come with a bullet seating die that also crimps the mouth. And a sizing/decapping die.

Some people find it easier to dial in the crimp if they aren't trying to seat in the same step; hence they seat only with the seating/crimping die (with the die body turned out enough that no crimp is applied) and then crimp separately with either the FCD or a separate taper crimp die (for semi autos and revolvers shooting plated--some prefer tapered for that) or roll crimp die (for revolvers).

To the OP, no, you don't NEED the 4th die. Some find the FCD useful, some don't. I like it for .40 and .45, though with some bullets and loads I get more accurate ammo if I skip the 4th die and just seat and crimp with the "standard" seating/crimping die (the 3rd die in both the 3-die and 4-die sets).

I use both 3-die and 4-die sets. I've had no trouble using the 3-die sets in .380 and 9mm. I've also removed the sizing ring from the FCD for my .38 Special set and just use it as a separate crimp die.

 

[gamestalker]

I've never owned one of their 4 die sets. But I thought the difference was that the 4 die included a "factory crimp die".

I've always assumed that the 4 die is as follows:

Resizing die
Powder through/expander die
Seating die/taper crimp die
Factory crimp die

As far as I know the 4 die set is no different to work with using a single stage, as it would be in a turret press, as the only difference is the added factory crimp die.

GS

 

[1KPerDay]

Also to the OP... if you haven't bought a press yet I HIGHLY recommend getting the Lee Classic Turret rather than a dedicated single stage for handgun reloading. You'll thank me.

You can use it as a single stage if you wish, but its "semi-progressive" feature makes it MUUUUUCH faster to make ammo once you get your feet wet.

http://youtu.be/wxJwWGYCrgs

http://youtu.be/Rq9ohRnfwOM

 

[1KPerDay]

I've never owned one of their 4 die sets. But I thought the difference was that the 4 die included a "factory crimp die".

I've always assumed that the 4 die is as follows:

Resizing die
Powder through/expander die
Seating die/taper crimp die
Factory crimp die

As far as I know the 4 die set is no different to work with using a single stage, as it would be in a turret press, as the only difference is the added factory crimp die.

GS

This is correct.

 

[il.bill]

I use Lee four-die sets in my single stage press to reload and taper crimp 9x19mm and .45 ACP for use in semi-automatic pistols. I use and like the fourth Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) with the carbide sizing ring on all my cartridges, and would only get the three-die set for reloading another caliber if the four-die choice was not available, since seating and crimping in separate steps works best for me. You can always choose not to use the fourth die if you want, but the cost is not that much higher and having the option is nice.

On revolver rounds (.38 spl. - .357 magnum / .44 magnum / .45 Colt) the FCD makes a great (easily adjustable to your liking) roll crimp, and for my money is the ONLY way to go.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I use the Lee 4 die set up for all of my pistol calibers using a Lee FCD for the 4th. I also use the 4th for .223 to put a light crimp on the case as well.

 

[Paddy]

It should be noted unless obvious (it wasn't to me) that some 3 die sets are sold more aimed at single or turret press use and have a size die, expand die and a seat/crimp die but sets sold with progressive use in mind the 3 die set is a size die, seat die, and crimp die and they assume that you will flare/ expand as part of the powder drop assembly on the press. They don't make it very obvious when they sell sets and mostly just offer "3 die set" which, for me at least, was confusing.

 

[303load]

I like the 4 die set for pistols. FCD does not care about equal case length to get consistent crimps. Where seating and crimping with the third die only can be a headache if not trimming all brass to equal length. JMO.

 

[rondog]

I use the Classic Turret Press, and four die sets. I like the FCD's just fine, thank you very much.

 

[TfflHndn]

For me the FCD is a must for revolver loads and .40 S&W and I have bought them to go with my 3-die (non-Lee) sets.

 

[GLOOB]

I have only used the FCD in two calibers.

In 38 special, I have used the FCD to "fix" cartridges that would not fit in the cylinder. Turns out some of my pickup brass was too thick to take the deep-seating wadcutters I loaded them with. Of course, this load was pretty much ruined from the get-go. But the FCD made pulling the bullets a lot easier, 6 at a time. THIS is the reason I don't use the FCD, routinely. If using the FCD, you might not find such issues, at all, unless you routinely do bench rested groups with new loads. I mean, if the FCD is actually doing anything different than a regular crimp die, it's because something is wrong. Why mask it?

In 40 SW, I have used the FCD to resize bulged cases.

Despite this, I have purchased the 4 die set in every pistol caliber where it's available. Just in case I get a progressive or a turret, I could knock the carbide ring out and use it as a crimp die. (Sometimes it's better to seat and crimp in separate steps). I figure better to have it and not need it than need it and have to buy it at higher cost, later. The pistol die boxes have room for the fourth die, so it doesn't take up any more space. And you just might need it to "fix" a problem load, one day, so you can pull the bullets with the happy switch.

 

[moxie]

For handguns I use a 3 die set and seat/crimp in one step. Works great. If dies are adjusted properly producing adequate case neck tension no further tweaking is needed.

For rifles, a plain 2 die set is perfect.

For .223, no crimp is needed, so a final run through a FCD doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[Walkalong]

i will start with 9mm luger.

FCD does not care about equal case length to get consistent crimps.

The FCD for rifles does not, but the one for pistols does. The crimp part in the pistol FCD does have some give because of the o-ring, so it is more forgiving than a fixed crimp ledge cut into the die body, but cases still have to be reasonable close in lengths for truly consistent crimps.

 

[gamestalker]

This ^^^

GS

 

[Average Joe]

I use the 4th die, it guarantees that range pick ups will chamber properly. If you only shoot your own brass, then its not needed.

 

[ky8]

I do not disagree with what anyone has said but like everyone
I have my opinion.

I use 4 die sets for the autos and 3 die sets for the revolvers.
I have a Lyman single stage press that I have loaded countless
revolver rounds with it but I would hate to do a lot of auto rounds
with the single stage. Just me.

To each his own. Having said that I would get the 4 station
press as the other poster suggested. You never, or hardly ever, have to
change dies. The difference is small in cost and great in usefulness.

As to the fourth die, No you don’t HAVE to use it but with autos I really
like the FCD.

As to trying to explain the use for the fourth die I would suggest getting
Modern Reloading second edition by Richard Lee and read all of it and especially the chapter on dies and what they do. I found that to be the best and easiest to understand.

All JMO
Good luck and safe reloading

 

[Dream of long range]

I only crimp my 9mm reloads (because the only other caliber I load for is a bolt gun) through the lee factory crimp die to line everything out and allow easy cambering and extraction and it isn't picky about brass length which takes a headache out of the equation.

 

[Jlr2267]

I get the FCD for all calibers I reload. It is a tool, like any other, that has its uses. Just tonight I resized a few hundred 380 reloads that came out .001 over max diameter due to brass thickness. Yes, I measured the first few to check setup when making them, but with mixed brass things like this happen.

 

[mgmorden]

I have some 4-die sets and some 3. When I first started loading I used the 4th but over time I've come to consider them unnecessary. For the sets I already have I stopped using the FCD - for any new sets I just buy the 3-die version. I've loaded well over 10,000 rounds without the FCD without any trouble at all.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I too don't find them necessary. I use only the three die sets for 9mm, 40, and 45. Never had a feed issue either. I just set OAL and getting charge right and they feed smooth like butter. YMMV

 

[GLOOB]

I wonder if there's a market for a case gauge die for one of the last stations on a press. It would be a special case gauge that can slide up/down, freely, in addition to having plenty of lateral play so it would self-center. It would gauge the outer diameter of the case in the area where the bullet seats, as well as the overall length of the brass to the rim/crimp. If the cartridge does not fit, the gauge would lift up to alert that the cartridge is out of spec. Perhaps that would best be mated to a battery powered alarm circuit so it would detect the slightest lifting. Of course, a cartridge that is in spec should slide freely through the OD gauge and stop short of the max case length lip. It would need only a one-time depth adjustment for a given press/toolhead.

Once alerted, you could pull that cartridge for disassembly. Or you could force it to conform with the FCD and toss it into a "seconds" bin, depending on what is wrong with it. If you get a number of these of the same headstamp, you might get an idea of which cases are too thick for that particular bullet and seating depth (or perhaps cases that are too long for the crimp setting, or which rifle cases weren't sized enough). These (except the rifle cases) are the kinds of things that the FCD will safely fix if not too extreme, but I'd rather know about them, nonetheless.

It would also be nice to know which cartridges fail before using an FCD, so you could be sure to bench-test them all for proper neck tension after the post-sizing as well as test them for accuracy. Just because the FCD made the cartridge able to chamber doesn't mean you necessarily want it to be mixed in with the rest of your reloads, let alone shoot it.

 

[greyling22]

I like the FCD for jacketed bullets, but not for lead. The FCD tends to swag the cast oversize lead bullet down to "correct" dimensions and hurts accuracy.

And I'm with 1kperday, I can't recommend the turret press classic enough over a single stage for pistol. In fact, go ahead and add the auto disk and safety primer gizmo. I am a penny pinching cheap broke fool, but you will be so much happier not jacking around with loading blocks and those itty bitty 9 cases. I also think it's safer to make 1 complete round at a time than to be moving cases all over the place. I'd even leave the auto index rod in place. that keeps you from getting distracted, pulling the handle 2x and double charging. So to sum up, turret is faster, safer, and not much more expensive. (if time is money you will pay off the additional cost of a turret in about 200-300 rounds)

 

[CBMC]

All this talk of popping out the fcd Carbide ring makes me wonder how you guys do it. I tried on my 40 cal set and essentially ruined the fcd die. I even tried to use a blow torch. The ring would not come out.
That being said, I shoot only lead cast bullets that are oversized by .001" so that means that the fcd is swaging down the bullet when it resizes, so I don't use it. The rifle fcd uses a collet that doesn't resize (some of the handgun fcd dies are also available in the collet variety via special order).